New Dark Eldar post match findings

[Mal]

Hi all, I managed to blag the store copy of the Dark Eldar codex today and get a couple games in.
I thought i'd let you all know of my findings, the good, the bad and the other.

I used a very similar list to what I usually run for the current dex and to be perfectly honest, it felt much the same as the army does with the current dex, there just wasn't as much difference in play style as I was expecting. I suppose it helps that the units purposes haven't really changed.

Anyway on to the findings...

Units that totally rocked!
Incubi! Hands down pure awesome sauce. Espically with the squad leader upgrade and his funky twin bladed thingy, it allows for a lot more variety of choice in how to deal with units in combat, it helped me a lot as I came into contact with units of varying toughness.

Wyches, I actually found these to be slightly less powerful that before, but that actually works in their favour, its easier to get into combats where you wont simply wipe your opponent out on the charge, its a lot easier to judge it so that you kill them in the second turn of combat (i.e. in your opponents turn).

Haemoculus, this guy killed nothing for 2 games... but the pain counter in my incubi/archons unit to give them FnP from the start of the game saved the unit when I got stuck going second (its hard to hide 6 raider chassis on a table with little terrain), so for this guys point, hes well worth taking, I may even work a second into the list for the wyches.

Units that sucked donkey ****.
Jetbikes, man are these things just poor... they are easier to kill and harder to kill things with... and thats all that really needs to be said about them... personally I feel them to be on par with the hellions now (and thats really saying something).

Ravager! Yes the trusty ravager is in dire strights... with the new dissy stat line these things may just get left on the shelf to collect dust for the next 12 years. Running them with lances is, to my experience, a waste of points, there are cheaper ways of getting lances into the list that incorporate duality, so dissys were always the way to go with these for me... and now dissys are just an Ap2 heavy bolter... still good, but not nearly as good as they were.

Units that are just a bit... meh...
Raider squad (well warriors with a raider transport), now you need 10 raiders to throw out a single dark lance, there is no more min/maxing to get cheap gunboats, this bumps up the cost of this unit and its killyness with the lances is exactly the same as before, although to be fair the splinter rifles are now a threat, espically if your shooting a high toughness target.

Unfortunatey I only had time for 2 games so I wasn't able to get more units tested out, I also didn't get time to try a few nifty new tactics with the WWP, I may get back to the store in a week or so, so hopefully more findings to report soon.

Until then, I hope you find this useful.

[JxKxR]

Darn, I was really wanting the jet bikes to be good because I like the models, same for the ravager. I am stoked that the Incubi did good though. How did the warriors perform for you?

[DaveLL]

Jetbikes, man are these things just poor... they are easier to kill and harder to kill things with... and thats all that really needs to be said about them... personally I feel them to be on par with the hellions now (and thats really saying something).

How did you use them? How many did you have in the squad? Turbo boost + bloodvanes, or shooting? Start them off with a haemy for FNP or no? Devil's in the details, man.


Raider squad (well warriors with a raider transport), now you need 10 raiders to throw out a single dark lance, there is no more min/maxing to get cheap gunboats, this bumps up the cost of this unit and its killyness with the lances is exactly the same as before, although to be fair the splinter rifles are now a threat, espically if your shooting a high toughness target.

? You mean you need 10 warriors for a dark lance? A single raider has a DL by default if I remember the new codex correctly. Doesn't it? Anyway, unless I'm confused, your warrior squad can't use a DL from inside a moving Raider anyway, and I can't imagine standing still being a good tactic for them... wouldn't 10 warriors+splinter cannon+raider be the obvious choice for maximum firepower?

[Mal]

This bikes were list filler, 9 bikes, arena champ with agoniser (thank god) and 3 heat lances, basically armour/mc killer then die unit. Which to be fair, they did... and they died... in droves. The problem with them is the standard attacks, the special you will kill 1-2 guys with, the normal attacks you'd match that on average, but now they have dropped Str to 3... the regular attacks just don't cut it anymore... and 2 wounds isn't enough to keep that unit in the fight. The problem with the bloodvanes is the fact that you can only use them whilst turboboosting... and you can't shoot/assault while turboboosting... so you exchange the shooty/choppy death this unit can dish out for a random number of S4 AP- hits... its nice, but its niceness is balanced by the loss of power in other places (i.e. no shooting/combat), and the cover save isn't worth crap with a 5+ armour save... a regular flamer will screw you over so bad its not even funny.

So the reavers have their uses, but they are far more fragile than before, and they have lost a tonne of combat effectiveness.

The raider has a DL by default with the option of a free upgrade to a dissy (my preference), the unit in the raider acts independantly from the raider for shooting purposes so the warrior unit has 1 DL, the raider and its dissy shoots seperately.
Yes you cannot fire the troop DL from inside the raider, but I usually drop them off in a good spot on turn 1 (or set them up outside the raider if there is a good enough field of fire from a nice area of cover) and then run the raider empty (it makes a great kamakazie missile in a jam).

[DaveLL]

This bikes were list filler, 9 bikes, arena champ with agoniser (thank god) and 3 heat lances, basically armour/mc killer then die unit. Which to be fair, they did... and they died... in droves. The problem with them is the standard attacks, the special you will kill 1-2 guys with, the normal attacks you'd match that on average, but now they have dropped Str to 3... the regular attacks just don't cut it anymore... and 2 wounds isn't enough to keep that unit in the fight. The problem with the bloodvanes is the fact that you can only use them whilst turboboosting... and you can't shoot/assault while turboboosting... so you exchange the shooty/choppy death this unit can dish out for a random number of S4 AP- hits... its nice, but its niceness is balanced by the loss of power in other places (i.e. no shooting/combat), and the cover save isn't worth crap with a 5+ armour save... a regular flamer will screw you over so bad its not even funny.
Huh. I would've assumed the obvious use for them would be the bloodvanes. That's a fair bit of of dakka, after all... D3 S4 hits (not shots), even AP-, per reaver is an average of 5/6 of a dead ork, 1/3 of a dead SM, or 8/9 of a dead guardsman per reaver... a respectable means of taking out, say, a long fang squad in cover. Utility against MCs or vehicles would seem to be a bonus to me, instead of the main purpose.

[DaveLL]

And, going 36", it shouldn't be that difficult to land them somewhere they won't get charged or flamed to death...

[Drew da Destroya]

Yeah, I've been thinking of running 3 or 6 Reavers with 2 Caltrops, and nothing else. Boost them around like mad, get free hits on things, and pick which objective I want to deny last turn. 3+ cover should keep them alive long enough, 36" keeps them away from most templates (gotta watch out for Hellhounds or "Ignores Cover" blasts), and the damage is a nice bonus.

Don't see much use for the Arena champ, since they aren't that great in combat (and I've got other options for that!). Maybe throw in a heat lance just for utility, but I don't see them ever not turboboosting.

[Blackyujiro]

I have the same take on Reavers as Drew. i plan on running a unit of 6 w/2 Caltrops and a unit of 3 w/Blaster for armor hunting.

on another note, I've been having great success testing out the Hellions. i've been proxxying 3 squads of 15. they really make a mess of things, firing 30 poison shots at a unit before the charge, then going in with 45(with good positioning) S4 attacks on the charge. Add in the Baron's S6 attacks(assuming he's leading the squad) and the force alot of saves. it gets even nastier once they get a second Pain Token.

[BuFFo]

Ravagers w/ Flickerfield and Night Shields are my MVPs.

[ronster1950]

I was looking at the new Raider and it look like it has a lot of parts sticking out hence may be more easily damaged than the older one.

And no running boards either. I may just keep the old ones for now.

Thanks for the heads up on the new codex play.

[Caldera02]

I played with a friends army to play test the build I want to run. It was ALOT of fun and I learned alot.

Lelith
Duke "The Duck"
9 Bloodbrides with razorflails, phantasm, agoniser
10 Wyches, Flails, phantasm, agoniser
10 Wyches, Flails, phantasm, agoniser
10 Wyches, Flails, phantasm, agoniser
9 Warriors, Blaster
6 reavers, 2 lances(1st build), Voidraven Bomber(2nd build)
2 Ravagers, Flickerfield
5 Raiders, Flickerfield

Couple things I learned.

Bloodvynes are not worth it unless you can totally get a clean shot and get away or not other vehicle target. So I will probably only run with 3 and 1 blaster, or heat lance. I think a Bomber is way more reliable and durable.

Ravagers seem to have a curse of missing alot and or not doing any damage lol. Or maybe was just me :P

Wyches are alot of fun!

lelith is underwhelming without furious charge but still does decent dmg. Killing 2-4 marines is respectable.

The Duck's buffs are pretty good.

FnP is essential.

Only played a couple games with them so far but I think it's going to be tremendous fun. Anything you guys could point out that you have learned or any advice/tweaks for my list. Thanks.

[Mal]

No you pretty much summed it up in that one short sentence...


FnP is essential.

This is going to be the guiding star for all competative builds in the army now, it is just too useful, sore there are lots of ways for people to deny it to us, but once you've gotten it and get into combat, most of what you'll face won't have powerweapons (there is only so many minis that can take them in any army). Plus we have the mobality to pick and choose our combats, which will be just as important as FnP, but this isn't any different from the past 12 years.

[DrBored]

I'm surprised Reavers did so poorly there.

I think we might be misjudging how to properly use them. Perhaps the Heat Lances and the like are just 'nice upgrades' if you needed to move 12" and pop a tank, but in terms of effectiveness, I'd upgrade their turbo-boosting weapons to make them much more killy on the fly. Don't they get an upgrade that bumps that up to str 6? Is that per Reaver or just for the Arena Champ or 1 per 3? Either way, that seems to me the way to go, and just criss-cross the field running interference.

Like the Piranha, you could also screen with the Reavers. Yeah they're an expensive unit to screen with, but if you have an even more valuable unit trying to hold an objective and some Khorne Berzerkers are coming in, you could Turboboost in front of the Berzerkers, hit them with some templates to soften them up, and then lock them in combat, saving your troops on an Objective for a turn. Moving 36" plus the Eldar Jetbike rule of an additional 6" move in the assault phase... it's just too valuable to pass up, and there's nothing else like it.

Next games you play, try some stripped-down Reaver squads with the turbo-boost weapon upgrades and nothing else (maybe a blaster or heatlance or two) and see how well they do.

[DarkLink]

I think we might be misjudging how to properly use them.


I think the only way to play them is to constantly turboboost and just annoy anything not in a vehicle. They're way too fragile otherwise. If you do take the lances, then save them a turn or two until your enemy has better targets than the reavers.

Of course, I haven't actually directly seen their rules, just heard about them second-hand, so I could be totally wrong

[Mal]

There are 3 different boost weapons avaliable for reavers...

Bloodvanes (standard equipment): D3 S4 AP- per bike

Cluster Caltrops: D6 S6 AP- per upgrade (upgrades bloodvanes)

Grav-Talon: D3 S4 AP- per upgrade (upgrades bloodvanes), causes pinning

One in 3 reavers may take one of the upgrades, personally i'd take the cluster caltrops, they are twice as expensive, but a whole lot more useful...

Mabey I wasn't running the bikes in the best way for them under the new rules, I was running the how im used to running them, but then that was the point of this thread, to find new ways and provide people with some additional information.

[rle68]

My first game with them is saturday

my initial list

Baron sathonyx makes helions troops
4 helion squads 5 man with heliarchs and stun claws

3 kabalite trueborns 8 each 4 blasters 3 shard carbines 2 squads w/a dracon with venom blade and ghostplate armor the other squad has 4 shard carbines
in raider with flicker shields and shock prows ( move the raider 12" shoot everything from the raider) x's 3

3 ravagers with 3 dl's flicker shields and night shields

Duke slicsus to run with the kabalite trueborns one squad will have 3+ wounding 3 shot shard carbines 12 shots

3 reavers with heat lance
turbo boost to armor hunt

there are a few points left in play and i may adjust to 3 squads of helions to get more numbers

im probably going to be playing against orks or guard either way it will be a good test

[Mal]

Im a little shocked that your running hellions as your only troops, espically in 5 man units.... hellions are better than before, but they are still ungodly fragile.

Take good advantage of the barons rules, use cover to stay alive with them... remember 2/3 matches are objective based, you loose your troops, you loose the game.

Also as a side note, you will loose the raiders, even with flickerfields they will fall to weight of fire (lets face it, it doesn't take high str weapons to bring one down). Once they are down and your trueborn are forced to disembark every wound they suffer will remove a model with a special weapon... there is zero abalative wounds in the unit, i'd try to squeeze a single additional trueborn in those units so that you have an ablative wound and it will require 3 casualties to force a morale check rather then 2.( Basically, play the odds).

[rle68]

Im a little shocked that your running hellions as your only troops, espically in 5 man units.... hellions are better than before, but they are still ungodly fragile.

Take good advantage of the barons rules, use cover to stay alive with them... remember 2/3 matches are objective based, you loose your troops, you loose the game.

Also as a side note, you will loose the raiders, even with flickerfields they will fall to weight of fire (lets face it, it doesn't take high str weapons to bring one down). Once they are down and your trueborn are forced to disembark every wound they suffer will remove a model with a special weapon... there is zero abalative wounds in the unit, i'd try to squeeze a single additional trueborn in those units so that you have an ablative wound and it will require 3 casualties to force a morale check rather then 2.( Basically, play the odds).

I totally agree with you.. yeah baron is essential for this... raiders are raiders as we well know :) having played them for years its going to be a re leaning the curve type of thing

[Blackyujiro]

After using Reavers to 'boost around the board last night against SW, I gotta say they make waaay etter harrassers than tank hunters. I ran 6 with 2 caltrops, and only lost one to a dangerous terrain check. They accounted for 2/3 of a Long Fang squad and Wolf Scouts.

I also ran 3 units of 15 Hellions(which I may break down to 3x10 or 2x15 as they had a pretty large footprint, even using models on foot as proxys)with the Baron leading one, and they made a pure mess of things. Between getting 30 Splinter Pod shots, then charging with 45 attacks, they can cause alot of armos saves to be rolled. My opponent really didn't enjoy them. If you can keep a large squad in cover til you get FnP(thinking about starting haemys with them for this), they WILL terrorize sh!@.