Maners and Gaming

[JxKxR]

So the discussion about stinky gamers got me thinking that at least some of these people have to realize they stink and just don't care. Then in that case don't you think they are being rude? To know you stink and are going to be around people and still not take a shower or brush your teeth is disrespectful of your fellow gamers. I also see other disrespectful behavior in the game stores, or rather hear, like foul language. Now I’m definitely no boy scout and do use colorful language from time to time, but in public I try to not be such a source of filth.
Well a few weeks back I was browsing the isles of my local game store and there was a guy and girl playing a game of 40K there and the girl was using obscenity after obscenity. She dropped the F bomb in between every other word. I could tell the guy she was playing didn't like it but for some reason he just endeared. I tried to nicely ask her to please, at the very least, lighten up on the swearing and was then the target of her dirty mouth screaming at me to "mind my own F'ing business" and that there weren't even any kids around. I then bid her a good day, flipped her the bird, (I said I was no boy scout) and left. Anyway my point is we do play the game to relax but is there too relaxed? Can we be too relaxed on hygiene and etiquette? What are your thoughts? Do you know any rude gamers? Do you just deal with the rudeness or do you take a stand?

[Mal]

There is no excuse for rudeness... being relaxed is not the same as being rude.

Im no saint (heh a lil too much devil in me matey), and I do use foul language from time to time, but I will not do so in a public place or in the presence of children... also I don't use that language around people who don't know me very well... first impressions and all that jazz. Mostly I swear in the privacy of my own home, and if I do swear anywhere else, I do so sparingly.

A relaxed atmosphere should provide a good basis for having fun... but please do so without being rude.

I know of a couple of ride gamers... one in particular who has a rather nasty dislike of me... I know why, but its such a pointless matter to quibble over I just tell him to stuff off and move on.

If someone is being rude in the places where I game (upto 3 venues now), then I will politely ask them to behave in a more civilised manner... if they then refuse, they are given a warning... if they still don't learn their lesson, they get asked to leave.

[scadugenga]

So the discussion about stinky gamers got me thinking that at least some of these people have to realize they stink and just don't care. Then in that case don't you think they are being rude? To know you stink and are going to be around people and still not take a shower or brush your teeth is disrespectful of your fellow gamers. I also see other disrespectful behavior in the game stores, or rather hear, like foul language. Now I’m definitely no boy scout and do use colorful language from time to time, but in public I try to not be such a source of filth.
Well a few weeks back I was browsing the isles of my local game store and there was a guy and girl playing a game of 40K there and the girl was using obscenity after obscenity. She dropped the F bomb in between every other word. I could tell the guy she was playing didn't like it but for some reason he just endeared. I tried to nicely ask her to please, at the very least, lighten up on the swearing and was then the target of her dirty mouth screaming at me to "mind my own F'ing business" and that there weren't even any kids around. I then bid her a good day, flipped her the bird, (I said I was no boy scout) and left. Anyway my point is we do play the game to relax but is there too relaxed? Can we be too relaxed on hygiene and etiquette? What are your thoughts? Do you know any rude gamers? Do you just deal with the rudeness or do you take a stand?

He was probably in a relationship with her, the poor *******.

I had a roomie in college who was in the position--his girl had what we called the "Eff quotient." The more she dropped the F-bomb in one sentence was indicative of just how close she was to a total violent screaming meltdown.

Thankfully for him, they got divorced. I couldn't imagine living in that environment. He definitely deserved better.

Unfortunately, in our modern society, there's really no consequence for being a total jag, (or jaggette). So trying to take a stand invariably backfires. With people like the twit in mention in your experience, really the only way to deal with them is to take it up over the notch of their comfortable factor. (If you, personally, are capable of being that rude.) Ramp her up to the point where she starts drooling with pent-up rage and watch her melt down. I know that it's "going down to her level" but it can work to shut her the eff up.

Realistically, it's not your responsibility to police the gaming area. The store management should set, and enforce, a set of reasonable guidelines to ensure everyone has the chance to enjoy themselves. Ejecting the offender usually moderates their behavior.

Of course, that's in a perfect world. Most game stores are run by gamers, who are notoriously lacking on confrontation skills. ;)

[JxKxR]

He was probably in a relationship with her, the poor *******.

I had a roomie in college who was in the position--his girl had what we called the "Eff quotient." The more she dropped the F-bomb in one sentence was indicative of just how close she was to a total violent screaming meltdown.

Thankfully for him, they got divorced. I couldn't imagine living in that environment. He definitely deserved better.

Unfortunately, in our modern society, there's really no consequence for being a total jag, (or jaggette). So trying to take a stand invariably backfires. With people like the twit in mention in your experience, really the only way to deal with them is to take it up over the notch of their comfortable factor. (If you, personally, are capable of being that rude.) Ramp her up to the point where she starts drooling with pent-up rage and watch her melt down. I know that it's "going down to her level" but it can work to shut her the eff up.

Realistically, it's not your responsibility to police the gaming area. The store management should set, and enforce, a set of reasonable guidelines to ensure everyone has the chance to enjoy themselves. Ejecting the offender usually moderates their behavior.

Of course, that's in a perfect world. Most game stores are run by gamers, who are notoriously lacking on confrontation skills. ;)

That's a part of the story I forgot to mention. The store owner was right there and just started laughing at our confrontation.

[scadugenga]

That's a part of the story I forgot to mention. The store owner was right there and just started laughing at our confrontation.

Then he's a huge part of the problem.

Hopefully you have another store in the area. I'd just avoid that place if you could.

[Kahoolin]

Unfortunately, in our modern society, there's really no consequence for being a total jag, (or jaggette). So trying to take a stand invariably backfires.That's my theory too. Politeness rules are tied to how likely you are to suffer violence at the hands of a stranger. In medieval Japan or pre-Industrial Europe you could be slashed or stabbed with a sword if you were rude to the wrong person, so those cultures developed strong social rules of engagement so idiots could protect themselves. The hangover of those rues still exists today in the form of good manners.

Now, we aren't allowed to stab idiots, and so manners have no real function. People are starting to realize this and act like jerks with impunity.

[scadugenga]

That's my theory too. Politeness rules are tied to how likely you are to suffer violence at the hands of a stranger. In medieval Japan or pre-Industrial Europe you could be slashed or stabbed with a sword if you were rude to the wrong person, so those cultures developed strong social rules of engagement so idiots could protect themselves. The hangover of those rues still exists today in the form of good manners.

Now, we aren't allowed to stab idiots, and so manners have no real function. People are starting to realize this and act like jerks with impunity.

Truer words were ne'er spoken...

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Oh i agree, there is no need for such crap, language and ill manners.
At my local store, i really only go there to waste time before work, i work nights, and some sundays when they play 40k.
Well there, we have a mix of kids, teenagers and adults, now all should know better in my opinion, but still we get some serious language thrown around. Like me some of the older players, do tell such people to drop the swearing, and the store owner well he doesnt care enough about his store, the customers to really do anything about it...surprised he still in business really with his lack of customer service.

For me, if im playing a game and my opponent start swearing badly, if it starts to get to me or i think its overly innopropriate, then i have no problem telling them to calm it down. Hey im no saint either, but i rarely swear, and am mindful of other people enough not to do it in front of children.

One time i packed up a game over this guys swearing, he just wouldnt stop, even asked politely by me and another, he didnt take to kindly me leaving his game, but it was obvious he was loosing anyway, i turned it from a friendly game to i wanted to wipe his army off the board.
He got even more agressive when i told him it though he was a moron, rude and i didnt appreciate playing someone with zero manners.

[DarkLink]

That's my theory too. Politeness rules are tied to how likely you are to suffer violence at the hands of a stranger. In medieval Japan or pre-Industrial Europe you could be slashed or stabbed with a sword if you were rude to the wrong person, so those cultures developed strong social rules of engagement so idiots could protect themselves. The hangover of those rues still exists today in the form of good manners.

Now, we aren't allowed to stab idiots, and so manners have no real function. People are starting to realize this and act like jerks with impunity.

This is actually a good point. In a vacuum, you can be as rude and obnoxious as you want.

If you add another person, though, you run the risk of annoying that person. If you want to avoid the consequences of annoying them, then be polite. If you don't care, then be as rude as you want.

Now, society as a whole has adopted certain behavioral rules. It's a sort of social contract, an "I won't be rude to you if you aren't rude to me".

Now, you don't have to be polite to other people. But if you don't want to get beaten up, or have people refuse to play you, then show some manners.

[BuFFo]

Well a few weeks back I was browsing the isles of my local game store and there was a guy and girl playing a game of 40K .....

Wait a second...

Your game store has a girl in it?

Give me directions to your store, please.

[Javin]

Buffo,

Stop feeding the trolls. Every gaming store has girls in it (at least everyone I have gone to in Colorado). Heck mine often has 2-3 (one who is very good with Tyranids). That does not include the normal GF watcher.

There is no reason to be surprised when ladies show up. Yes some swear, some are nice, just like guys. In the end it should be all about having a good time and good opponent.

As for the unfortunate situation with the lady who was swearing, go to different store if that is the standard. Stores that allow or even condone such behavior not only give the game a poor name, it drives potential new players away.

[Xas]

there really is no other way than to be an even bigger jerk and confront them to make them stop.
"beat them at their own game" or ignore them (or try to make the store owner kick them out).

as of the question if stinking is rude too:

YES!


I personally dont care if people use foul language (its them that are looking like idiots if they do) but I really hate it if people smell bad. My way to deal with it is makeing (sometimes foul) jokes about body odour and maybe even the offender him/herself.

[Mal]

I disagree with a lot of peoples opinion here...

you say that person A is rude so person B should be ruder... well then by that logic, person C sould be even worse... its standard escilation, and it makes for a very unplesant gaming enviroment.

If someone is being rude, ask them politely to stop... just because they are being a jerk doesn't give you an excuse to be one too.

[Cyberscape7]

I do agree that there should be a social code that is followed when playing 40k or any other game for that matter. I can't say that I haven't used rude language when playing in my own house or very occasionally a game store, but I do try to dial it down. As for the stink, people; wash in the morning and take at least 3 showers a week. That should sort out that problem.

[DarkLink]

you say that person A is rude so person B should be ruder... well then by that logic, person C sould be even worse... its standard escilation, and it makes for a very unplesant gaming enviroment.


Have you heard of the Prisoner's Dilemma (if not, look it up on wikipedia)?

Not directly related, but turns out game theorists are nerdy, too. They sometimes do "tournaments" based on situations like this to see what strategy will win the most.

Turns out that so called "tit-for-tat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat)" wins in the long run. Essentially, you are polite by default. But if someone is rude to you, you don't cooperate with them. But most importantly, you have to be quick to forgive, so if someone who was rude to you suddenly starts being nice, then you be nice right back.

Just thought that was an interesting side note. There are some wikipedia articles on this, somewhere.

[Mal]

The problem with that in this instance is your adding to the problem... the few people that I know that are rude are not put off by others being rude... so to put this in pratice, they come in and be rude.. then everyone tried to 'out rude' them... suddenly you have a room full of very rude people...

This is not an atmosphere I wish to game in.

I still stand by my previous statement...

If someone is rude, you politely ask them to stop... if they continue they get booted out of the building...

There are polite and civilised ways to deal with rude people, there is no reason for others to join in in being rude.

[JxKxR]

Wait a second...

Your game store has a girl in it?

Give me directions to your store, please.

HA! I don't mean to be overly rude talking about a female, but its hard to tell she is one. Although I do have a few good looking friends who happen to be girls who are really interested in 40K, but every time I try to teach them they get overwhelemed by the rules. Maybe I'm a bad teacher, anyone have any good teaching the game to new players tips?

[Mal]

anyone have any good teaching the game to new players tips?

Yup... start off small...

Start by teaching them to play the basic mechanics using 2 squads of space marines (they make a happy medium and are very very forgiving). So you cover things like the turn sequence, movement, line of sight and cover, then go into the shooting rules... heres another reason I like the space marine squad... missile launcher and flamer, this covers most types of shooting in this one small unit.

You get the frag templates that scatter, you get high AP shot with the krak, you get flamer templates that don't scatter and you get rapid firing weapons...

Once a new player understands all of these things then they are well on their way to getting to grips with the game.

After covering all of these things, don't be disheartened if you have to cover them a few times, not everyone understands this stuff right away, also don't let them be disheartened, otherwise they simply won't learn anything, you can now move on to the assault phase (yes I skipped the psychic powers, I don't introduce new players to this until they have a few full games under their belts).

The basic principle is to feed them bite sized pieces of the rules and not to flood them with too much information at once... even if people think they get something, don't rush ahead, let the information sink in before moving on to something new.

[L192837465]

maybe i'm a bad teacher, anyone have any good teaching the game to new players tips?




yup... Start off small...



hahahahahaa

[DarkLink]

The problem with that in this instance is your adding to the problem... the few people that I know that are rude are not put off by others being rude... so to put this in pratice, they come in and be rude.. then everyone tried to 'out rude' them... suddenly you have a room full of very rude people...


Well, it's not so much that you be more rude back to them, just that you don't cooperate with them. The dilemma is kind of a conceptual thing, so that's not really that clear.

So if someone's rude to you, you don't necesarily have to be rude back to them, specifically. You could say, "dude, stop being rude". You could refuse to play them, or just flat out start ignoring them. Or you could put their face through the nearest wall. I don't think that would go over too well with the shop owner, though:rolleyes:.

Anyways, I just thought that it was an interesting side note. It also works pretty well online. Be polite to everyone, and if you run into a troll just say "hey, you're being a troll", then ignore them. But if they stop being a troll and start being nice, then don't hold a grudge.


In fact, I'd really say the important part about the "tit for tat" strategy is to not hold a grudge rather than to reciprocate bad behavior.

[razcalking]

In fact, I'd really say the important part about the "tit for tat" strategy is to not hold a grudge rather than to reciprocate bad behavior.

That along with not allowing others to treat you badly repeatedly. If you just allow people to continue poor behaviour, they will "win" every time, and you will "lose", even if just by having to put up with them over and over.

[Kahoolin]

I read an in-depth discussion of game theory once, including tit for tat and the Prisoner's Dilemma. The thing is, tit for tat is the best survival strategy in the long run if you are living in a society with rules and the majority of people follow those rules. If there are no rules, or the majority of people don't follow them, then the best strategy is "the criminal" where you always behave selfishly with no regard for others.

So when people are being jerks with no provocation they are kind of assuming that everyone else is using that strategy too. I have to admit, after more than a decade online I am slipping out of "tit for tat" and into "the criminal" in my online behaviour. There is simply no reward online for niceness and it's hard not to lead with an insult. The real world isn't like that yet, and I really hope it doesn't get that far.

[JxKxR]

I read an in-depth discussion of game theory once, including tit for tat and the Prisoner's Dilemma. The thing is, tit for tat is the best survival strategy in the long run if you are living in a society with rules and the majority of people follow those rules. If there are no rules, or the majority of people don't follow them, then the best strategy is "the criminal" where you always behave selfishly with no regard for others.

So when people are being jerks with no provocation they are kind of assuming that everyone else is using that strategy too. I have to admit, after more than a decade online I am slipping out of "tit for tat" and into "the criminal" in my online behaviour. There is simply no reward online for niceness. The real world isn't like that yet, and I really hope it doesn't get that far.

Maybe if I had offered her a cookie in return for her cutting down on the vulgarity she would have complied.

[Kahoolin]

Maybe if I had offered her a cookie in return for her cutting down on the vulgarity she would have complied.Lol that's awesome, control the unruly masses through consumerism :cool:

[Mal]

Lol that's awesome, control the unruly masses through consumerism :cool:

Heh, nice idea but that'll never work... people aren't dumb enough to fall for such an obvious play...

ohh wait...

:D

[DarkLink]

Maybe if I had offered her a cookie in return for her cutting down on the vulgarity she would have complied.

Either that, or removed a few teeth. There's not a whole lot of in-between with mild sociopaths.

[BuFFo]

HA! I don't mean to be overly rude talking about a female, but its hard to tell she is one. Although I do have a few good looking friends who happen to be girls who are really interested in 40K, but every time I try to teach them they get overwhelemed by the rules. Maybe I'm a bad teacher, anyone have any good teaching the game to new players tips?

A purse and a pulse is all I need, dude.