Disembarking from Valkyies in to Buildings.

[Koppenflak]

Ok, so, I came across this during a weekend game. The answer may well be obvious, so I apologise if the solution is blindingly obvious and I'm just being obtuse... On the other hand, understanding the Valkyrie was never straight forward to begin with.

Scenario: my stormtroopers in their valkyrie arrive via outflanking and move 18 inches up to a Planetstrike bastion, pivots so the door is side-on to a building, and I declare that the stormtroopers are going to disembark on to the roof of the bastion. It's two inches from the door, so conforms to disembarking rules.

I'm then told that that will be a difficult/dangerous terrain test for the squad for attempting to land directly on the building.

Brief disagreement ensues, and for the sake of continued peace, I simply disembark at the base of the building and walk upstairs through the door next turn. Didn't matter to me either way - the scouts occupying the roof were mercilessly slaughtered regardless.

Still, it would be nice to have some clarification for future reference just the same. How do we handle disembarking from the Valkyrie directly on to the upper level of a building? Is it a difficult or dangerous terrain test? Is it clear terrain?

[Mr.Pickelz]

i would allow that in my games, as long as any skimmer-transport could as well, say eldar or their darker bros. :)

I do not know the offical ruling on that though

[Tynskel]

hmmm. Well, there was a ruling at 'Ard Boyz that disembarking from the Valkyrie was measured from the base, but that is up to your gaming group.

As for taking the Difficult/Dangerous Terrain Check. Was the building Dangerous Terrain? Was it declared Dangerous Terrain before the game started? This is why it is important to discuss the terrain amongst everyone before the game begins. If the terrain is difficult, there's no need to check, because the disembarking movement is unmodified by terrain features.

Getting out of a vehicle into terrain is fine, but doing so is usually done at the ground level (all examples are done that way). Also, you could never get out of your valkyrie without using the base, normally, because the doors are more than 2" away from the ground! So, I recommend being consistent.

[Koppenflak]

hmmm. Well, there was a ruling at 'Ard Boyz that disembarking from the Valkyrie was measured from the base, but that is up to your gaming group.

As for taking the Difficult/Dangerous Terrain Check. Was the building Dangerous Terrain? Was it declared Dangerous Terrain before the game started? This is why it is important to discuss the terrain amongst everyone before the game begins. If the terrain is difficult, there's no need to check, because the disembarking movement is unmodified by terrain features.

Getting out of a vehicle into terrain is fine, but doing so is usually done at the ground level (all examples are done that way). Also, you could never get out of your valkyrie without using the base, normally, because the doors are more than 2" away from the ground! So, I recommend being consistent.

Your last point is the source of the problem. The building, as I stated, was a bastion... so it came to the height of the door! It was a flat roof, with no obstruction, within 2" of the access point.

As a point of curiosity... Anyone know how this would be handled for purposes of normal flyers?

[Nungunz]

Check the IG FAQ for how to disembark from a Valkyrie/Vendetta. Normally you can't even disembark from a vehicle moving more than 12"

With a Vendetta they would disembark following the rules for Deepstrike anywhere along the direct flight path, but will take dangerous terrain tests if they scatter so much as an inch (read the IG codex).

Landing in ruins or the like you always take dangerous terrain tests when deepstriking.

In essence your opponent was correct, but for an entirely different reason than he suspected.

[Paul]

hmmm. Well, there was a ruling at 'Ard Boyz that disembarking from the Valkyrie was measured from the base, but that is up to your gaming group.

As for taking the Difficult/Dangerous Terrain Check. Was the building Dangerous Terrain? Was it declared Dangerous Terrain before the game started? This is why it is important to discuss the terrain amongst everyone before the game begins. If the terrain is difficult, there's no need to check, because the disembarking movement is unmodified by terrain features.

Getting out of a vehicle into terrain is fine, but doing so is usually done at the ground level (all examples are done that way). Also, you could never get out of your valkyrie without using the base, normally, because the doors are more than 2" away from the ground! So, I recommend being consistent.

Just so you know, Valkyries can change altitude, so the 2" from the ground thing doesn't make sense, provided you're willing to, you know, allow helicopters to go "down" in the third plane.

[Koppenflak]

Check the IG FAQ for how to disembark from a Valkyrie/Vendetta. Normally you can't even disembark from a vehicle moving more than 12"

With a Vendetta they would disembark following the rules for Deepstrike anywhere along the direct flight path, but will take dangerous terrain tests if they scatter so much as an inch (read the IG codex).

Landing in ruins or the like you always take dangerous terrain tests when deepstriking.

In essence your opponent was correct, but for an entirely different reason than he suspected.

Not following you on why they can't disembark after 18 inches. "Flat out" for a Valkyrie is 24. Fast skimmer. It only moved 18, which is cruising speed in this case.

D'OH! to the other point. Just checked the FAQ, and indeed, you are correct. Short of actually landing on the roof, has to be measured from the base anyway.

Ta for the clarification.

[Nungunz]

Not following you on why they can't disembark after 18 inches. "Flat out" for a Valkyrie is 24. Fast skimmer. It only moved 18, which is cruising speed in this case.

Nada. Anything greater than 12" is still flat-out whether or not it's a fast skimmer. IE a Skimmer's flat-out range is (12"-24").

The only thing a fast skimmer gets is a cover save when going flat-out. There is nothing anywhere in the rule book that says a fast skimmer going 18" is at cruising speed.


D'OH! to the other point. Just checked the FAQ, and indeed, you are correct. Short of actually landing on the roof, has to be measured from the base anyway.

Ta for the clarification.

Not a problem.

[Athanaris]

As previos posters have said you MUST talk with your opponent about the terrain before you start playing. My guess is that you both 'saw' a bastion and just assumed certain things about it. Hope you had fun playing anyway.
You mentioned Scouts occupying the roof. Were the scouts occupying the building while you were trying to debark?? Check page 80 of BRB, under the Parapets and Battlements heading, it is easy to miss this information about buildings.
The Apocalypse Valk has the 'Hover" and 'Flyer' ability so it could probably drop the transported unit on the building as a normal debarkation. In 40K it is still a skimmer so debarkation works as normal. Just FYI if you were using Cities of Death there is a stratagem called 'Rappelling Lines' which allows normal debarkation from a skimmer onto upper building levels.

[Koppenflak]

As previos posters have said you MUST talk with your opponent about the terrain before you start playing. My guess is that you both 'saw' a bastion and just assumed certain things about it. Hope you had fun playing anyway.
You mentioned Scouts occupying the roof. Were the scouts occupying the building while you were trying to debark?? Check page 80 of BRB, under the Parapets and Battlements heading, it is easy to miss this information about buildings.
The Apocalypse Valk has the 'Hover" and 'Flyer' ability so it could probably drop the transported unit on the building as a normal debarkation. In 40K it is still a skimmer so debarkation works as normal. Just FYI if you were using Cities of Death there is a stratagem called 'Rappelling Lines' which allows normal debarkation from a skimmer onto upper building levels.

Much obliged. Will check when I get home from work.

'Twas a friendly game nonetheless. As I said, for the sake of continued peace, I didn't really argue the point and just went with it.

[Conspyre]

It's also very important to note the difference between a building, like the Bastion, and a ruin, like the CoD terrain. The Cities of Death Rappelling Lines are for getting into the upper levels of ruins (CoD, P. 38). If there's already someone in the Bastion, as per the building rules in the 40K rulebook, (p. 79), you have to actually attack the building- you can't walk into the building as it's already being held. Keep in mind that buildings are treated as immobile transports. Would you try to land troops on top of someone's Rhino? The Scouts being on the roof of the building make it count as Open-Topped (40k rulebook p. 80), it does not make the Scouts legal targets for shooting or assault.

The moral of the story? Buildings are really, really good for units with large potential shooting output that suffer badly in close combat. Also, it is important to look over the table pre-match and double check that everyone understands the effects of every piece of terrain. If I had a dollar for every argument prevented by that opening conversation, I'd probably have another Company of Ultramarines.

[TSINI]

I'd have gone with the more fluffy aproach of the dangerous terrain test (remember that SAS dude dangling in front of the embassy? - it happens to the best of the best)

but then we tend to play solid buildings with rooftops as a 2in1, this way you can get multiple squads on rooftops etc, troops inside treat it as a transport. kind of like a transport that other models can walk all over the top like a ruin.

[Mal]

you can choose to play it however you like providing both players understand the relevant rules.

[Tynskel]

Just so you know, Valkyries can change altitude, so the 2" from the ground thing doesn't make sense, provided you're willing to, you know, allow helicopters to go "down" in the third plane.

actually you cannot modify the stand for a unit. I thought it would be a good idea for Land Speeders, but I remember the rules saying that's a no no.

I'll have to look it up again.

[BuFFo]

actually you cannot modify the stand for a unit. I thought it would be a good idea for Land Speeders, but I remember the rules saying that's a no no.

I'll have to look it up again.

He never mentioned anything about flight stands.

Read what he wrote carefully.... It is pretty funny actually.

[Conspyre]

I'd have gone with the more fluffy aproach of the dangerous terrain test (remember that SAS dude dangling in front of the embassy? - it happens to the best of the best)

but then we tend to play solid buildings with rooftops as a 2in1, this way you can get multiple squads on rooftops etc, troops inside treat it as a transport. kind of like a transport that other models can walk all over the top like a ruin.

Which is an interesting house rule, but one must assume for the purposes of rules discussions that everyone is playing by the rules in the book.

How do you handle getting onto the top of a building occupied by the enemy? Can models scale the sides? What about very tall buildings like the Bastion?

[Porty1119]

Buildings are not something that are typically assumed to factor heavily into a game. If you look at most boards (and the BRB), you'd probably agree.

[SotonShades]

If the Valkyrie has moved over 12" you'd be deploying the storm troopers via the Grav Chute Insertion rule for the Valkyrie (pg 56 IG Codex). If they scatter they need to take a dangerous terrain test. However as they are deploying as if via deep strike they may not deploy directly into a building (pg 95 BRB) as they count as impassable terrain. If you tried to do this, the unit would automatically be destroyed, as per the result of rolling a 1 or 2 on the deep strike misshap table (Grav Chute Insertion rule).

I don't have the Planetstrike book myself, but the only instance where I think where a squad can deploy from a vehicle into a building would be the landing pad. Not sure if there are any special rules for that. Could anyone with the Planetstrike book care to shed more light on the situation?

[Conspyre]

Buildings are not something that are typically assumed to factor heavily into a game. If you look at most boards (and the BRB), you'd probably agree.

Can we make the same assumption about the Dark Eldar six months ago? How common something is doesn't make it more or less valid in the rules- they have to cover it either way. I strongly suspect that on average, the number of buildings per table has gone up significantly since the release of the Bastion- it is more rare for me to see a table these days that DOESN'T have at least one building on it.

SotonShades absolutely has the right of it, from a strict rules perspective. I had not thought about the interplay between Grav Chute Insertion and the impassibility of buildings.

In Planetstrike, the Skyshield Landing Pad is a little odd. It has a defined Armor Value, but it does not have a "transport capacity" like a building or bastion does. The rules for landing on it are pretty straightforward though- if the flaps are down, then something can land on it at any speed and deploy troops.