Assault after Flat Out Ramming??

[Ahrimaneus]

Alright so with the Dark Eldar right around the corner, and many of the "rumoured" rules being thrown around, I have a question regarding a particular nuance.

I believe I read somewhere that the raiders can take rams, allowing them to ram vehicles. Even if this is not the case, my question stands:

If you move flat out and ram an enemy vehicle and your transport then wrecks/explodes, can the emerging squad then fleet and/or assault?

Since they're technically not disembarking (which is not allowed if moving flat out) and instead forced to leave the destroyed vehicle, I would think they'd be able to run/fleet/assault normally? One might argue you disembarked from a transport that moved and therefore cannot assault, but in the raider's case it is open-topped, so that particular rule does not apply.

Anyone know for sure?

[SotonShades]

its an emergency disembarkation, and thus still a disembarkation and subject to all the normal rules and restrictions

[Ahrimaneus]

Well it's not an emergency disembark as you don't have to get out where there are no access points.

However, I think RAW it would be a normal disembarkation, which would allow you to move and assault out of an open topped vehicle. I know it's not necessarily the most sportsmanlike or normal thing to do, but fact of the matter is if this is a viable tactic we'll all be seeing lots of suiciding raiders full of wyches, incubi, archons, and other CC nastiness looking for a turn 1 assault. Best to be prepared.

[Cruor Vault]

According to RAW, if the Raider is wrecked than everyone inside dies (flat out prevents disembark). If the Raider is Vaporised than they are placed (no mention of disembark) and i guess they could assault as normal. But its a weird situation, I think more often than not it wont be an issue.

[Archon]

This is not covered exactly by the rules. But I say: NO, it is not possible to assault after your radier goes flat out and will be wrecked. Be it by accident (a one for dif.terrain) or by force (trying to ram a vehicle). My point is: Your are not allowed to disembark, if you go more then 12" with your vehicle/raider. Now you have a situation that forces you to disembark (wrecked). The unit is out, clearly, but you shall not assault, cause you are disembarked, but don´t allowed to (eek). If you assault your have the second illegal move, the first is a matter of circumstances (my be by accident or by force), the second - how can you assault, if you werent allowed to disembark.

In conclusion i would threat this as a emergency disembarktion.

[MC Tic Tac]

its an emergency disembarkation, and thus still a disembarkation and subject to all the normal rules and restrictions

Under the rules for emergency disembarkation, if a unit does it they cannot act for the rest of the turn.

[JMichael]

If a fast skimmer transport is moving flat-out and suffers an immobilized result it is wrecked. (p71)
A troops embarked in fast skimmer that moved flat-out may not disembark. (p70)
note: that emergency disembarkation can only be done if they cannot disembark due to enemies w/in 1" or impassible terrain (p67)
Destroyed - Wrecked result: Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed (p67)

So... The only way for troops of a ramming fast skimmer moving flat out to still assault is if it explodes and pass they pinning check.

-JMichael

[Tynskel]

Any time a model/unit is forced out of the vehicle they are disembarking. p.66-67. If you must disembark during the movement phase, and the vehicle has moved flat out, the unit is destroyed p.67, 70, 71

This would include: Immobilized/wrecked by ramming, and Immobilized by Terrain (skimmers are destroyed if moving flat out and become Immobilized).

When you have Passengers on Board, Drive Crazy at your own Risk.

[BuFFo]

Your Raider goes flat out. Doing so disallows you from disembarking.

Your Raider Rams another vehicle. Your Raider gets Wrecked. Wrecked vehicles say that passengers MUST disembark. This isn't an option. Only if you cannot Disembark does the unit go bye bye.

"Passengers must immediately disembark" this isn't a choice. The only time you couldn't be able to Disembark from a Wreck is if your access point was blocked off by something.

So yes, you can Disembark from a Wrecked Result.

Flat out says you cannot Disembark, but when you become a Wreck, the new rule which forces you to Disembark takes precedence.

This is just like Falling Back and Going to Ground. If you are Falling Back, you can be forced to go to ground. If you have gone to ground, you can still be forced to fall back.

A new rule overrides the current state of the game with it's new effect.

Flat Out < Wrecked = Ram your Raiders, and have fun assaulting afterwards.

[Tynskel]

no, that's not right--- if you cannot disembark for any reason, the models that cannot disembark are removed. This means if you are wrecked during flat out, the passengers are forced to disembark, but they cannot due to flat out, and are destroyed--- I pointed out all the relevant pages : 66,67,70,71

[Ahrimaneus]

I understand the reasoning behind your argument as you state it, however, I would ask. Why the rule that they "cannot" disembark takes precedent over the rule that they "must" disembark? Why not the other way around? Has there ever been an official ruling on this matter? As a mech eldar player I've had flat out units wrecked before and I've never had anyone try to tell me they're all dead. Now there's a long list of arguments I could make about RAI and the 5th ed rule set changes that would back up the survival thing, I am only curious as to official rulings that have been dealt

[BuFFo]

I understand the reasoning behind your argument as you state it, however, I would ask. Why the rule that they "cannot" disembark takes precedent over the rule that they "must" disembark? Why not the other way around? Has there ever been an official ruling on this matter? As a mech eldar player I've had flat out units wrecked before and I've never had anyone try to tell me they're all dead. Now there's a long list of arguments I could make about RAI and the 5th ed rule set changes that would back up the survival thing, I am only curious as to official rulings that have been dealt

You are quite right.

If you were to play that a 'first' layer rule takes precedence over a 'second' layer rule, you could not even play the game.

The game is played in a very simple manner; You play with rule A. Rule A is what you do unless you come across Rule B, which contradicts Rules A. Rule B now takes precedence over Rule A unless it is stated directly in either Rule A or Rule B that Rule B does not override Rule A.

People seem to be picking and chossing what order they want to play the rules in, and you cannot do that, as this renders the game unplayable. New rules ALWAYS override old rules, unless otherwise stated.

Wrecked Results state you must immediately Disembark. So you follow the rules for Disembarking as normal, as per Wrecked Result rules. It doesn't matter what any rules in the Movement phase say, as the Wrecked Result is the 'second' layer ruling over the Movement phase 'first' layer ruling.

The most obvious and compelling argument is a simple one. Codex rules override Basic rules. Why? If they didn't, you couldn't play the game at all. The same holds true for basic rules which override basic rules, and when basic rules conflict, you must apply the 'second' rule unless either rule specifically forbids such a thing.

Movement says you go flat out, you cannot disembark - first layer.

Wrecked Result says you MUST Disembark. There is no choice here. This isn't a may, or can. You MUST Disembark - Second layer.

I am like you. I have been Wrecked out of going Flat Out for years, and in 'Ard Boyz and other Tournaments, and never once has this come up.

I call this kind of 'discussion' internet ruling. Something you discuss on the internet 'just to do it' but has no real application in real life.

[Tynskel]

The way you are interpreting the rulebook is inconsistent.

p. 70 Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved flat out in that Movement phase.
(3 key words: that Movement phase)
p.67 The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

You are leaving out the second sentence, which states that models that cannot disembark are destroyed---- p. 70 states the models cannot disembark.
Therefore, the models are destroyed. At no moment is Rule 'A' (p.70) is in conflict with Rule 'B', because Rule 'B' specifically mentions that if models cannot disembark they are destroyed. (this is consistent within how you interpret the rulebook--- which is not necessarily mean that's how I interpret the rules, I am just using the same guidelines that you are following).

You are adding rules by stating you cannot get out if the doors are blocked---- the wrecked rule does not state this at all--- all it states is if you cannot disembark, the models are destroyed---- and in this case, you cannot disembark, because the p.70 rule states you cannot disembark (or embark) if the vehicle will, or has moved at Flat Out.

You MUST disembark, and by doing so, the models are destroyed by the second condition for 'wrecked'.

[Atrotos]

I would posit that the "second sentence" Tynskel refers to is a reference to the Disembarkation rules as they are explained in the first section of Page 67. It is by these rules that the player must abide by while disembarking (more than 1" away from enemies and so forth) not the external factor of how far the vehicle has moved. I support this position by pointing out that the Vehicle Explodes result does not apply this limitation because (since it was only in reference to the space available for disembarking) it does not apply.

This is, of course, an interpretation of the rules - not rules as written in which case Tynskel would be right. However, Buffo has already pointed out that the game becomes impossible to play in a RAW format. 40k simply isn't designed to play in a logical vacuum.

[BuFFo]

The way you are interpreting the rulebook is inconsistent.

p. 70 Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved flat out in that Movement phase.
(3 key words: that Movement phase)
p.67 The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

You are leaving out the second sentence, which states that models that cannot disembark are destroyed---- p. 70 states the models cannot disembark.

I knew this was would be the issue here.

When you are playing the game, the Movement Phase happens before being Wrecked. You move Flat Out before you become a Wreck. So you apply the rule on page 70, which bars you from Disembarking. This I agree with.

So far, you went Flat Out. The rule states you cannot Disembark. This is the current state of teh game.

Now, after going Flat Out, due to Ramming, your Raider becomes a Wreck. You now refer to the rules concerning Wrecked Vehicles.

You are told you MUST immediately Disembark. This is not a choice. This is the state of the game you are in. The first layer told you that you cannot Disembark, but now the second layer tells you that you MUST Disembark.

The second sentence is only there if you cannot actually Disembark as per the Disembark rules. If all your Access points are blocked, and there is no where for you to go, the unit is Destroyed.

Let me put it this way.

In the Movement phase, you are told that your Raider can move 12" because it is Vehicle. You are not allowed to move past 12". But then you apply the rule for being a Fast Vehicle. Now you can move past 12".

The question is simple. Why are you ignoring the effects of rules overriding each other in the case of the Wrecked Raider, but not when it comes to Moving a Fast vehicle? By your logic, Fast vehicles can never move past 12" because you cannot override an original rule. I know I may be stretching it here with this example, but the idea is still quite valid, as if I wanted to, I could take 10 minutes and find 500 Rules instances where new rules override old rules.

Either way, I am done with this debate. I have put forth my views. Any further attempt is just to up a post count .

[JMichael]

It's interesting that this is an issue.
Obviously people have different interpretations, but to me and my gaming store this has always been pretty obvious.

Wrecked=must disembark
Fast moving flat out=can't disembark (doesn't say anything about this only being voluntary)
If you can't disembark=unit is destroyed.

The order that the rules are in (as far as page #) shouldn't really matter. Indeed if it did then the game would be unplayable.

I guess to each his own. Though I have never come across this in a tournament, indeed vary rarely have I even lost a unit from within my fast moving WaveSerpents. Mostly because I fortune them to re-roll the 4+ fast moving cover save!

[BuFFo]

The order that the rules are in (as far as page #) shouldn't really matter. Indeed if it did then the game would be unplayable.

I don't think anyone here is arguing for the order of the rules as physically printed in the book.

You may be misunderstanding what people are saying.

[Mal]

I vaugely remember a couple of rules about embarking and disembarking that may add precidence to this...

There is an exception listed for units who would not normally be able to disembark...
"However, they may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed."

It then goes on to say...
"A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved. When the unit disembarks, each model must be deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle’s access points, and within unit coherency. They cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy model. If compelled to disembark (e.g. because of the vehicle being destroyed), any models that cannot disembark because there is no room for them to disembark into are removed from play as casualties."

Note it specifically states they are destroyed if there is no room for them to disembark... no other condition is mentioned for destroying troops through denied disembarkation.

[BuFFo]

Note it specifically states they are destroyed if there is no room for them to disembark... no other condition is mentioned for destroying troops through denied disembarkation.

Ah, yeah, thank you! This was what I was looking for this whole time. Gosh I am such a dolt.

I knew I was missing something.

[Mal]

It sprang to mind when I remembered the wording of the first part I quoted... basically saying your make to disembark even when you would not normally be able to, and gave a vehicle destroyed as an example of this.

Its an interesting discussion, but I think this is one of the not quite so grey areas in the rules.

[Ahrimaneus]

Commence drooling on ramming raiders full of CC goodness into unsuspecting rhinos....:rolleyes:

[BuFFo]

Commence drooling on ramming raiders full of CC goodness into unsuspecting rhinos....:rolleyes:

You know, I have already played a few games with the new DE, and in every game I bought Rams, but never used them.

I just couldn't bring myself to destroying my anti-tank weaponry (Dark Lances) on a chance I might blow their vehicles up!

Maybe this would be good for a kamikaze Wych Cult build? Maybe with a Flicker Field you could Ram over and Over? :eek:

[Mal]

Lol, that'd be cool.... flatout 24" movement into a ram... cant you get more movement out of them with the athersails? an extra 2D6 iirc, so thats a potential 36" ram... that a Str12 hit!!!! (Str10 in regular 40k)... that can kill a land raider!!! (and will definately kill your poor transport ;) )

I think I remember the ram strength correctly...

+1 for being a tank (we dont get this... boo! hiss!)
+1 per 3" of movement travelled (you can hit their back line with a 36" movement)
+1 for every point fo armour over 10 (we dont get this either... boo! hiss!)

And even taking the average dice roll for the 2D6 movement, thats an everage flat out move of 30-31", enough for a Str10 hit.

Whats even better is against marines, we can ram them, but they can't ram us, their only skimmer isn't a tank and doesn't have a ram wargear upgrade.

[BuFFo]

+1 for every point fo armour over 10 (we dont get this either... boo! hiss!)


Doesn't the Ram upgrade give us +1d3 to our Front Armor?

[Mal]

Honestly... I don't know...

Didn't pay that much attention to the vehicle upgrades aside from a cursory glance... I tend to not use many to keep my points down.

[Mal]

I was considering putting this to the other group I game with... but I know it'll just spark arguments and i'll get accused of cheating again...

Heh BuFFo, they called me a cheater for suggesting that movement tactic you told me... even scoured the rule book for anything to block it... the best they came up with was disallowing the pivot move to mean you travel further then your max speed... heh moving 12" with a max speed of 36" means its still legal :p

Still where this rule is concerned...

We know that if the transport is destroyed the unit is forced to disembark providing there is enough room for them, any model unable to disembark is destroyed (note model, not unit).
We also know that a model disembarking (note doesn't specify voluntary or forced) from an open topped/assault transport may shoot/assault as normal, but may not move.

So I don't see anything in the rules to disallow this...

Can anyone else see any potential debate points?

[SeattleDV8]

Doesn't the Ram upgrade give us +1d3 to our Front Armor?

Yes it does.

[BuFFo]

Heh BuFFo, they called me a cheater for suggesting that movement tactic you told me... even scoured the rule book for anything to block it... the best they came up with was disallowing the pivot move to mean you travel further then your max speed... heh moving 12" with a max speed of 36" means its still legal :p

Your friends are correct...

A vehicle cannot move more than a total of 12".

What does this mean?

You cannot do the following; Measure 12" from the Raider, then pivot, and move to that 12" spot. YOu have actually moved more than 12" since you need to measure AGAIN once you pivot.

This is why the Raider slide only works in one of two situations;

1) Deployment. Your Raider is sideways against the deployment line. When you move 12 from this position, then pivot, you did not move more than 12".

2) 90 degree attack. At any point during the game, you can do the pivot move, BUT, you can only do it from a stationary Raider BEFORE you pivot. What does this mean? Your Raider can only move, roughly, in 90 degree angles each time. This is hard to explain, but I am sure you'll figure it out.

Basically, in all situations, you can NEVER pivot BEFORE or DURING a the vehicle's movement if you are trying to do the pivot trick. You can ONLY pivot at the very end of the movement.

So you both were right. Yes this movement is quite legal, but, only under those two specific situations.

[Ahrimaneus]

My idea behind the ramming tactic isn't necessarily to blow up the enemy with the ram move, but to blow up my own raider! While a 65pt upgrade (raider) may seem a bit steep, a 65pt upgrade which allows my wyches/incubi/etc to assault turn 1 and not get shot to pieces sounds pretty sweet to me. Let the other DL's in the list to the canopening and let the CC units munch on whats left over from inside!

Also seems kinda cool from a fluff perspective with DE CC warriors doing anything and everything necessary to start shreddin some mon-keigh. Not to mention your Wyches are way safer in CC then they are if they get shot down before they get to assault.

[Angelofblades]

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the rulebook disallows disembarking from a vehicle that has moved or is going to move Flat Out! the that Movement phase. Thus it's actually more dangerous on the DE player's end to attempt this at all with an embarked unit as you will find your unit most likely destroyed. The only way the unit is not destroyed is if Raider explodes.

[Mal]

or if its wrecked... 1+ to the damage chart and moving over 12" means a result of 3-4 will wreck you and 5-6 will destroy you...

you cannot stay embarked on a wrecked vehicle and we already covered that the unit is only destroyed if there is no room to disembark.... since were contgrolling the ram, there will be room.

so while you cannot choose to disembark, if the vehicle is wrecked/destroyed you are forced to disembark.

[Paul]

so while you cannot choose to disembark, if the vehicle is wrecked/destroyed you are forced to disembark.

It doesn't say you cannot choose to disembark. It says you cannot disembark. So, if the vehicle is Destroyed, Wrecked then you are forced to disembark. You cannot disembark. Therefore, "any models that cannot disembark are destroyed."

The situation for being unable to disembark IS covered in the destroyed vehicle rules. Therefore, since it is covered, we can presume there are situations when you cannot disembark. In addition to normal terrain and enemy model restrictions, another reason you would not be able to disembark is if you have moved Flat Out! in that Movement Phase.

[Mal]

Im not disagreeing with you, im just being a little more precise... the vehicle damage chart:

1: Crew - Shaken
2: Crew - Stunned
3: Damaged - Weapon Destroyed
4: Damaged - Immobalised
5: Destroyed! - Wrecked
6: Destroyed! - Explodes

As you can see destroyed isn't just the explodes result, a wrecked result is also a destroyed result... so on a 3+ (+1 to damage chart for being open topped, and a result of immobalised when moving over 12" means your wrecked) you are forced to disembark... on a result of 1 or 2, the transport survives and gets a coversave (for moving flat out).

As to being destroyed because your not able to choose to disembark... the vehicle disembarkation rules actually state vehicle destroyed as an exception to this... if your transport is destroyed and there is room for you to legally disembark then the unit is not destroyed.

[Paul]

/snip
As to being destroyed because your not able to choose to disembark... the vehicle disembarkation rules actually state vehicle destroyed as an exception to this... if your transport is destroyed and there is room for you to legally disembark then the unit is not destroyed.

No, I understand what you are saying about the damage results. I'm just talking about the transported unit being destroyed.

It says nothing of the sort. It says you may "emergency disembark" if you cannot disembark normally because of terrain or enemy models. However, it also says if you cannot even "emergency disembark" then the unit is destroyed.

Since you cannot disembark (emergency or otherwise) from a vehicle that has moved flat out in the same Movement Phase, then the unit is destroyed.

Even if, despite that, the unit somehow emergency disembarks, they are not permitted to do anything else on their turn, including shooting, running, or assaulting.

[Mal]

If you move over 12" you cannot disembark normally... this I agree with...

But taking that to mean you cannot disembark or emergency disembark is a bit of a stretch don't you think?


Transport fast vehicles

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark
from a Fast vehicle if it has moved or is going to
move Flat Out in that Movement phase.

This is fine, it means you may not make a normal disembarkation... but it says nothing about not being able to make an emmergency disembarkation. An emergency disembarkation is what you do when your vehicle is destroyed and you cannot disembark normally.

Nothing in the rules says you can't emergency disembark after moving more then 12" and having your transport destroyed.

The rules do differentiate the difference between a voluntary disembark and what is a forced disembark...
A voluntary disembark is where you choose to get off the vehicle inn your movement phase, a forced disembark is what you have to di if your transport is destroyed. Since its opentopped I can disembark anywhere around the hull within 2" if my vehicle is destroyed.

As to not being able to shoot/assault... I did find the rule for this... but it only says they may not assault. It states they may shoot as normal.

So it is a legal tactic, but the loss of the assault is a killer, sorry BuFFo, we'll have to find another way... to get our troops there...

I suppose if we stuch a haemo in the transport and have him drop a WWP in the middle of the opponents deployment zone on turn1? The call in reserves from there, its not ds'ing so we can assault out of it.

[Paul]

If you move over 12" you cannot disembark normally... this I agree with...

But taking that to mean you cannot disembark or emergency disembark is a bit of a stretch don't you think?



This is fine, it means you may not make a normal disembarkation... but it says nothing about not being able to make an emmergency disembarkation. An emergency disembarkation is what you do when your vehicle is destroyed and you cannot disembark normally.

Nothing in the rules says you can't emergency disembark after moving more then 12" and having your transport destroyed.

The rules do differentiate the difference between a voluntary disembark and what is a forced disembark...
A voluntary disembark is where you choose to get off the vehicle inn your movement phase, a forced disembark is what you have to di if your transport is destroyed. Since its opentopped I can disembark anywhere around the hull within 2" if my vehicle is destroyed.

I don't believe I understand, so I will concede the point.

I will also note that I fully support assaulting after a "Vehicle Explodes" result. The only time passengers are in trouble if it is "destroyed." If it merely explodes, then there are no restrictions on unit disembarkation, assaulting, shooting, or any other actions they may wish to take.

[Mal]

I need to take back the last part of my previous post....

Heh stupid me, I forgot to take into account the open topped rules...


Passengers of open-topped vehicles may assault as normal, even if the vehicle has moved before their disembarkation. This makes them excellent assault troops.

So we can still assault from a wrecked transport... and if it is destroyed we only suffer a S3 hit because its opentopped... still a bit resky, espically for wyches with their 6+ armour save and T3... odds are we'd loose half of them in the explosion.

So perhaps the haemo with WWP is the safest bet then... plus this way we only need 1 transport to get to their lines...

To cover redundancy we can have 3 haemo's per HQ slot, and every haemo can have a WWP. We will have to give them a unit to get a transport (one they can deploy in as they cannot board a transport thats going to ram this turn), so 5 warriors at 9 points a pop and a raider with ram and sails... this comes to 200 pts a pop... not cheap but it means you don't need any other transports in your army (that'll cover the 200 pts nicely), you can have wracks as troops, so thats T4 FnP units pouring out of the WWP that are scoring.

I think this could be a viable build...

I suppose you could even send the haemo in with the wracks so they get 2 pain counters from the get go, and have FnP and FC, so they can charge after dropping the WWP and hit at S4, T4, FnP... although they use poisioned weapons, so this may be a bust.

[Cyberscape7]

Use common sense. If you just got caught up in a horrible grizzly explosion, would YOU try to assault the enemy. Granted this is dark eldar we're talking about. They would probably assault the vehicle they just tried to blow up...

[Mal]

If I just got caught in a horrible explosion and survived and found myself behind enemy lines where my best chance of survival was to assault, then hell yes I would...

Unfortunately common sense isn't covered by the rule book.

[BuFFo]

Use common sense.

You could only do this if you were a Wych in a Dark Eldar army, and have either done this before, or know of it happening in such a way that it would affect you.

[Tynskel]

I knew this was would be the issue here.

When you are playing the game, the Movement Phase happens before being Wrecked. You move Flat Out before you become a Wreck. So you apply the rule on page 70, which bars you from Disembarking. This I agree with.

So far, you went Flat Out. The rule states you cannot Disembark. This is the current state of teh game.

Now, after going Flat Out, due to Ramming, your Raider becomes a Wreck. You now refer to the rules concerning Wrecked Vehicles.

You are told you MUST immediately Disembark. This is not a choice. This is the state of the game you are in. The first layer told you that you cannot Disembark, but now the second layer tells you that you MUST Disembark.

The second sentence is only there if you cannot actually Disembark as per the Disembark rules. If all your Access points are blocked, and there is no where for you to go, the unit is Destroyed.

Let me put it this way.

In the Movement phase, you are told that your Raider can move 12" because it is Vehicle. You are not allowed to move past 12". But then you apply the rule for being a Fast Vehicle. Now you can move past 12".

The question is simple. Why are you ignoring the effects of rules overriding each other in the case of the Wrecked Raider, but not when it comes to Moving a Fast vehicle? By your logic, Fast vehicles can never move past 12" because you cannot override an original rule. I know I may be stretching it here with this example, but the idea is still quite valid, as if I wanted to, I could take 10 minutes and find 500 Rules instances where new rules override old rules.

Either way, I am done with this debate. I have put forth my views. Any further attempt is just to up a post count .


The logic that you are applying here is flawed. The rule for Fast Vehicle explicitly states 'during THAT movement phase'. This means that it only applies to the Movement Phase. You are assuming that the movement phase ends when you become wrecked. That is not the case. You are still in the movement phase, and you would still apply the restrictions that are applied to that phase.

Can't help but point out--- you are not wrecked during any 'unique' phase in the game. Vehicle destruction rules are not a 'phase'. These rules overlay onto the general rules of the rulebook, and can apply at any point within the rulebook. Just as the Flat Out rules overlay the Vehicle Movement Rules, which those overlay the Movement Rules. During movement phase, while moving Flat Out, your vehicle can become wrecked by Ramming or by Dangerous Terrain.

The wrecked rule states you must disembark, and it has a second phrase that states if any model cannot disembark, they are removed. Since we are still in the movement phase, and the vehicle in question has moved Flat Out in THAT phase, you cannot disembark. The models are destroyed.

As I said earlier--- If you are a transport driver, and you drive crazy, you are risking not only yourself and your vehicle, but the passengers as well.

[Mal]

We covered this bit already... the rules also state that you can be forced to disembark when you would not otherwise normally be able to... and it lists an example... the vehicle being destroyed.

Since its a listed example in the rule book I think its safe to say its allowed.

[Tynskel]

We covered this bit already... the rules also state that you can be forced to disembark when you would not otherwise normally be able to... and it lists an example... the vehicle being destroyed.

Since its a listed example in the rule book I think its safe to say its allowed.

Yes, the book does state that you can be 'forced' out---- but it also states that you can be destroyed while being forced out. (note that it states this during the 'wrecked' statement)

The solution that I have listed here is entirely consistent with ALL of the rules for disembarking.

The example that Buffo gave is only consistent with SOME of the rules.

[Mal]

Excedpt for one problem... the book only lists a single condition in which you can be destroyed by not being able to disembark, and that is when there isn't room for the unit to disembark.

Under no other condition will a unit be automatically destroyed from a wrecked transport.

[Tynskel]

No, what the rules state if you cannot disembark due to enemy models or impassable terrain, then you can do an emergency disembarkation.

Unfortunately, your vehicle was moving too fast, and is not listed as one of the conditions for 'emergency disembarkation'.

The Flat Out rule states you cannot disembark during THAT movement phase. It is strictly limited to the movement phase, in case your vehicle gets shot to crap during the opponent's shooting phase, so guys can get out. However, the wrecked rules do not state that they override the Flat Out rules because they explicitly state that models that cannot disembark are removed.

Drive Crazy at your Own Risk!!

[Paul]

I agree with Tynskel, as we all know (and somewhat suprisingly.)

The only times you can emergency disembark are if the exit points are blocked by impassable terrain or enemy models. "If you cannot even do [emergency disembark], models which cannot be placed are destroyed" is the last sentence in the emergency disembark section.

Since you cannot emergency disembark (As your debarkation is not being stopped by enemy models or terrain) then you are simply destroyed.

[Mal]

Let me put it to you this way...

A unit gets into a rhino... the rhino doesn't move... the rhino gets shot and wrecked... is the unit destroyed?

Answer, according to your interpretation of the rules, then yes it is... according to the actual emergency disembarkation rules, no its not.

Yet the rules do state that a unit may not embark and disembark in the same turn... shock horror it doesn't say anything about emergency disembarkation... much like the rule your using...

The who reason for emergency disembarkation is to disembark from a vehicle that has been destroyed where you would not normally be able to disembark....

You cannot normally disembark from a vehicle that has moved over 12", this is 100% true... however you can be forced to make an emergency disembarkation if your vehicle is destroyed. Models will be destroyed if they are unable to make an emergency disembarkation (i.e. there is not enough room to put them out within 2" of access point (or entire hull in the case of opentopped) and within 2" coherency.

[Paul]

Let me put it to you this way...

A unit gets into a rhino... the rhino doesn't move... the rhino gets shot and wrecked... is the unit destroyed?

Actually, no it isn't, because there is no need to invoke emergency disembarking as the unit can disembark normally.


Answer, according to your interpretation of the rules, then yes it is... according to the actual emergency disembarkation rules, no its not.

Why are you even talking about emergency disembarking? It is not required in this situation.


Yet the rules do state that a unit may not embark and disembark in the same turn... shock horror it doesn't say anything about emergency disembarkation... much like the rule your using...

Actually it says the same movement phase.


The who reason for emergency disembarkation is to disembark from a vehicle that has been destroyed where you would not normally be able to disembark....

Only if it is because of enemy models or impassable terrain.


You cannot normally disembark from a vehicle that has moved over 12", this is 100% true... however you can be forced to make an emergency disembarkation if your vehicle is destroyed. Models will be destroyed if they are unable to make an emergency disembarkation (i.e. there is not enough room to put them out within 2" of access point (or entire hull in the case of opentopped) and within 2" coherency.
You can only emergency disembark if the access points are blocked. There is no other situation in which emergency disembark is invoked, including ones in which you cannot disembark for any other reason.

[Mal]

Again im going to have to disagree with you... the rules simply do not say that...

I can see your interpretation, and I understand why you think its the case, but I have to disagree.

The rules do state that a unit may be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed, this is clearly stated as a case where the unit would not normally be able to disembark but is still able to due to the vehicle being destroyed. A wrecked result is a destroyed result.

If you ignore the other rules your right... if you take all the embarkation/disembarkation rules into account, then you are able to.

*Edit*

having reread the rules, specifically for emergency disembarkation, I should not have used this section, in this you are right, however you may still be forced to disembark when you would not normally be able to due to a vehicle destroyed.

[gcsmith]

I just wanted to add something, The posts commenting being unable to disambark quote 'You may not disembark'.

Now by applying english language this statement is different to can not disembark.

May means choice. So by using english, You may not disembark means you cannot chose to disembark.

The unit destroyed rule state If you cannot disembark.

However, when your vehicle gets destroyed there was no choice, It was forced. So the may rule was obeyed since you didnt chose to disembark. And the cannot rule is obeyed because they can because the only rule possibly stopping them stops them chosing too. They didnt chose to so all rules are in tact.

Think of this. In law you MAY not steal. However if someone held a gun to the head and you are FORCED to. Would you be held on trial? no of course not due to the standard english used and common sence.

Sure this situation is dodgy, but clear analysis of the rules dictates Dark Edlar can assault after a wrecked after flat out.

Would I think this is cheesey? yes of course.
Over powered? no because they require to hand you a kill point. And don't forget theres the chance they don't kill your vehicle, and if the vehicle is wrecked you just place on other side stopping assault.

So Buffo is correct.

[Tynskel]

Let me put it to you this way...

A unit gets into a rhino... the rhino doesn't move... the rhino gets shot and wrecked... is the unit destroyed?

Answer, according to your interpretation of the rules, then yes it is... according to the actual emergency disembarkation rules, no its not.

Yet the rules do state that a unit may not embark and disembark in the same turn... shock horror it doesn't say anything about emergency disembarkation... much like the rule your using...

The who reason for emergency disembarkation is to disembark from a vehicle that has been destroyed where you would not normally be able to disembark....

You cannot normally disembark from a vehicle that has moved over 12", this is 100% true... however you can be forced to make an emergency disembarkation if your vehicle is destroyed. Models will be destroyed if they are unable to make an emergency disembarkation (i.e. there is not enough room to put them out within 2" of access point (or entire hull in the case of opentopped) and within 2" coherency.

The rulebook is explicitly clear---- the cannot disembark during the Movement Phase when you move Flat Out.

Your example doesn't have the vehicle even moving, so disembarking as normal would occur. Then, if the exits were blocked, you could perform an 'emergency disembarkation'.

If your razorback/rhino was a Blood Angels version, and had moved Flat Out--- was shot and blown open, then yes, you can disembark. That's because you are no longer in the Movement Phase. The Flat Out rule is explicitly clear that you may NOT disembark during the Movement Phase. It does NOT restrict disembarking during any other phase.

Normally, before or after a vehicle moves, a unit can disembark. There is NO restriction, except for if you had embarked in the same phase. However, there is an exception that if you embarked in the same phase, you may be forced to disembark due to being wrecked. This is a very explicit exception.

Flat Out, however, has a very specific restriction. You may not Disembark during the movement phase. That's it, no movement phase Disembarking. No exceptions.

This is the opposite of the normal disembarking rules: you are always allowed to disembark, except when embarking in the same phase, but can still disembark if the vehicle is wrecked.

The Wrecked rules state you must disembark, but if models cannot disembark they are destroyed. If you move flat out (whether you are a skimmer or a ground vehicle) and you are wrecked during the Movement, your unit is destroyed.

Drive Crazy at your Own Risk!!

[Mal]

Im still going to have to disagree with you...

We are interpreting the same rule differently, you say they are exclusive, I say its inclusive.

At this point in time all we are doing it making post after post where we are just repeating ourselves, and I don't know about you, but that bores me, so lets just agree to disagree and if it does come up as an issue in game, then you can always fall back on the most important rule if no concensus is reached.

[Xas]

models are placed regardless if its an exploded or wrecked.

you guys are missing a very obvious difference:

A) you MAY not disembark from a fast transport that moved flat out
B) you CANNOT disembark into impossible terrain and/or 1" from an enemy

C) models that CANNOT disembark are destroyed


I really see no difficulty in understanding this. Read your own rulebooks, it should be even that clear in the localisations (at least the german one got this one right).


Finally: if passengers of a flat ou moving transport would be destroyed because they arent allowed to disembark then EVERY passenger would be destroyed with his/her vehicle. Simply because you are only allowed to disembark in YOUR movement phase as part of the vehicle's movement sequence.

[Tynskel]

Xas, you are getting hung up on one word, whereas there is no other relationship to the rules here. The embark/disembark rules explicitly describe the situations for which you can and cannot embark/disembark. The Flat Out Disembark Rule specifically only applies to the Movement Phase, and no other phase, whereas the embark/disembark rules apply to all phases of the game. It is also clear why the Flat Out rules are written the way they are: preventing 12"+ move to make the 'rhino rush'. The rhino rush was 3rd Edition, and it dominated the game-- in many ways, ruining it.

The lynchpin is the rules under wrecked. Must disembark + models that cannot disembark are destroyed.

The big deal here is that rules give the controlling player, who's models are at stake, the choice:

Which is why when your vehicle gets blown to smithereens by your opponent, you models survive, UNLESS you place your vehicle into a dangerous situation (ie, too close to impassable terrain/opponent's models).

The same scenario applies to moving Flat Out and risk to the passengers---- it is up to the controlling player to decide how much risk to apply to the passengers. If you decide to move Flat Out, and avoid all dangerous terrain/ramming, the passengers are safe. However, the controlling player can add levels of risk: ramming, and dangerous terrain, and those risks have their rewards, but can have serious consequences. As before, if you move Flat Out and get shot to smithereens, unless you compromised the safety of your passengers, they are safe to disembark.

Overall, the Choice rests on the Controlling player's decisions on how to move their own vehicle.

Which is why I keep stating:
Drive Crazy at your own Risk.

[Mal]

Actually there is a risk to the passengers... if the vehicle explodes they all take a hit...

This is the danger to using transports.

What your saying is a vehicle wrecked result is more dangerous than a vehicle destroyed result...

There is precidence in the rules, both in the rules themselves and in the way thay are worded that the unit is not destroyed outright providing there is room for them to disembark from the wreck.

So I refer you back to my last post...

I will not convince you, and you will not convince me (i've had waaaay too many of these discussions before...), so lets just drop it already... we have both put across our arguments, people are free to interpret them however they choose.

[Tynskel]

Actually there is a risk to the passengers... if the vehicle explodes they all take a hit...

This is the danger to using transports.

What your saying is a vehicle wrecked result is more dangerous than a vehicle destroyed result...

There is precidence in the rules, both in the rules themselves and in the way thay are worded that the unit is not destroyed outright providing there is room for them to disembark from the wreck.

So I refer you back to my last post...

I will not convince you, and you will not convince me (i've had waaaay too many of these discussions before...), so lets just drop it already... we have both put across our arguments, people are free to interpret them however they choose.

Oh, I understand your position completely. I am was not arguing with you any more. As far as I am concerned, I have dropped it with you. My last comment was not directed at you. :/

[Coffeemugg]

My 2 cents-(worth 1 cent)

You won’t see any of these shenanigans in my local area. Most people where I’m from will be going to Adepticon and will want to practice and play within the INAT FAQ.

VEHICLES: FAST VEHICLES (page 70)
RB.70H.01 – Q: If a transport vehicle is „Destroyed‟ in the same movement phase it is declared to be moving „flat out‟ (when ramming another vehicle, for example) are the models onboard destroyed?
A: Yes, when a vehicle is destroyed in the same movement phase it moves „flat-out‟, passengers onboard are unable to disembark and therefore count as destroyed [clarification].

So if you plan of playing DE at Adepticon or any tourny using the INAT you wont be able to play this strategy.

[Tynskel]

Ya see, I didn't need that crappy INAT FAQ to tell me this--- it is already in the rules.

[Rapture]

Doesn't the rule book say that models inside of a transport that moved flat out and was destroyed are killed? I play Tau though, so this rule doesn't come up a lot.

[Tynskel]

Doesn't the rule book say that models inside of a transport that moved flat out and was destroyed are killed? I play Tau though, so this rule doesn't come up a lot.

Not specifically. What the rules state is that if the Vehicle moves flat out, then the models may not disembark. Because they may not disembark, and the embarked unit does not qualify for the exceptions for disembarking (the only exception is a standard move, and the vehicle may have picked up a unit in the same round), they are destroyed due to the conditions that are described in the wrecked vehicle rules.

[rle68]

My 2 cents-(worth 1 cent)

You won’t see any of these shenanigans in my local area. Most people where I’m from will be going to Adepticon and will want to practice and play within the INAT FAQ.

VEHICLES: FAST VEHICLES (page 70)
RB.70H.01 – Q: If a transport vehicle is „Destroyed‟ in the same movement phase it is declared to be moving „flat out‟ (when ramming another vehicle, for example) are the models onboard destroyed?
A: Yes, when a vehicle is destroyed in the same movement phase it moves „flat-out‟, passengers onboard are unable to disembark and therefore count as destroyed [clarification].

So if you plan of playing DE at Adepticon or any tourny using the INAT you wont be able to play this strategy.

I wasnt going to add anything to this topic as its pretty much been covered unitl this massive amount of stupidity arose.

number one and the only thing i need to point out that the inat faq you are so fricking proud of doesnt mean squat they are not gw and those rules dont mean spit.. period end of sentence ( if you attend their events you are stuck playing with non standard rules and then you are playing adepticon 40k and not warhammer 40k have fun but ill pass)

having spent some time reading through the rule book ill have to with hold judgment until i finish reading all relative passages but as i see it right now its a perfectly valid move as it says passengers in open topped transports may assault even in the transport has moved and thats all it says it says in another section about plain ole transports something else... if i was serious i could argue it only says transports and not open topped transports thus that rule doesnt apply to them