Instant Death and the Agonizer

[Drew da Destroya]

So, doing some pre-release Dark Eldar listhammering, and I'm not totally sure how the Soul Cube and the Agonizer will interact.

The Agonizer always wounds on a 4+, but does it still take into account the user's strength when determining Instant Death?

For example, my Archon with Soul Cube and Agonizer goes on a Carnifex killing spree. After killing 2 MC's, he's at Strength 10. Now, he's still wounding on a 4+ regardless of S vs T, but would he be causing Instant Death to T5 and less models?

[BuFFo]

So, doing some pre-release Dark Eldar listhammering, and I'm not totally sure how the Soul Cube and the Agonizer will interact.

The Agonizer always wounds on a 4+, but does it still take into account the user's strength when determining Instant Death?

For example, my Archon with Soul Cube and Agonizer goes on a Carnifex killing spree. After killing 2 MC's, he's at Strength 10. Now, he's still wounding on a 4+ regardless of S vs T, but would he be causing Instant Death to T5 and less models?

Yes, this works.

You cannot combine two special weapons together, but the Soul Trap isn't a weapon, it is just a piece of wargear that affects the user's Strength stat.

When a wound is dealt, the game checks to see what the strength of the attack was. Close Combat attacks use the user's strength, unless otherwise specified. The game doesn't care what you had to roll to wound the model.

For instance, if a Marine with a Power Fist wounded a model that could only be wounded on a 6+, but had 4 toughness, the model would still suffer Instant Death for being wounded by a Strength 8 model.

[Drew da Destroya]

Ok, that makes sense. Makes the soul cube a pretty decent choice... I'm not sold on the Cube/Huskblade combo (it already causes ID...), but Cube/Agonizer could be fun.

[Mal]

To be fair, there are not many armies where you'll face multipul IC/MC, let alone taking on 2+ of them with the same guy... I don't see many people getting a lot of use out of the cube...

The best game i've had with my archon saw him kill 2 wraithlords singlehandedly (they count as MC so that'd make him str 10), however by the time this happened, my opponents force had been throughly chewed out and I was only left with troops to fight... single wound minis... the cube would be absolutly useless to me unless I decided to hack at them with my splinter pistol at S10, but allowing them an armour save... (seeing as there were only 2 of them left I would have gone with the agoniser anyway).

Its a nice bit of wargear, but itd only see any real use against specific armybuilds, which makes it a waste of points in a rounded list.

[Drew da Destroya]

Yeah, I'm mainly thinking against my normal opponents... I've got an MC-happy Tyranid player, a Blood Angel who really likes his priests, and a Chaos player who usually runs a Daemon Prince and Sorcerer.

Building a "balanced" list for a tournament, though, I'd probably leave the cube home. Too situational to really help.

[DarkLink]

Ok, that makes sense. Makes the soul cube a pretty decent choice... I'm not sold on the Cube/Huskblade combo (it already causes ID...), but Cube/Agonizer could be fun.

The Cube's real benifit is the increased strength, not the ability to ID stuff. You're not very likely to be able to kill enough stuff to reasonably get to Str 10 to even be able to ID those character that you've already had to kill to get to that high a strength. I wouldn't rely on the cube to let you ID things. Let the Huskblade do that, while you get str bonuses from the cube.

Of course, by the time you manage to even get to your opponent's IC to kill it with the Archon, it'll probably be too late in the game to benifit too much. It might be really nice against 'nids or daemons, though.

[BuFFo]

Yeah, the Soul Cube seems like a waste of points over all.

Just avoid it.

[Tynskel]

Str 10 isn't bad for vehicle--- a double lash prince and now you can walk up to vehicles. (I don't have the rules, but from reading the thread, str10 is still str10!)

[Old_Paladin]

The main thing people aren't thinking about is even the difference between strength 3 and 6 when killing basic MEQs.
You kill that Marine Librarian, then next turn, you go to town on the squad he was with (or near). Now they're dealing out 5 (or more) WS:7 attacks that wound on a 2+ with no armour save.

That's the real power of a Soultrap. As almost nothing else in the army can do this (or do it as cheap as an Archon can).

[DarkLink]

The problem with it is that you need to kill 2 MC/ICs to get str 10. Your opponent will of course probably try to avoid this, and so you probably won't be able to kill both your opponent's HQs (if he even has 2).

The exception is 'nidz and Daemons, who don't have transports and likely have a few MC/ICs. Your Archon can just fly up, jump out and assault, and so could get that Str bonus much easier. Of course, Bloodthirsters aren't exactly the easiest things to kill with Str 3...

[BuFFo]

Looks like I am taking my Reavers of my dusty shelf, and putting my Archon models right in their no-dust circular spots...

WAAAAY too much work for a strength boost on a model that is supposed to kill ICs, yet gets the boost AFTER he does so?

In my years of playing this army, my Archon doesn't kill an IC model until, what, turn 4 normally, turn 3 if the moons align? And without the ability to re roll misses, the coffin on the Archon just got sealed.

[Mal]

I'll still use my archon, but hes going in with his Agoniser...

Who said earlier about killing 2 lans deamon princes? What do you plan on killing them with.... the archon is S3 base....

If your using the agoniser, then there is absolutly no reason for you to need the strength bonus as it doesn't use the characters strength to wound..

So if you want to wound those marine troops on a 2+ they will get their 3+ armour save... if you want to ignore their save you will wound them on 4+ regardless of strength.

Cube = waste of points.

[Old_Paladin]

So if you want to wound those marine troops on a 2+ they will get their 3+ armour save... if you want to ignore their save you will wound them on 4+ regardless of strength.

You know that the Archon has a bunch of different weapon options that ignore armour and use his strength?

[Drew da Destroya]

As far as I'm aware, he has 3... the Whip thing that halves strength, a basic power weapon, and the Huskblade.

The whip might be cool, except its special ability relies on your target having more than one wound and surviving you hitting it, which is a little counterintuitive if you're trying to crank up to 10 strength. The Husk blade doesn't benefit a ton from S10, since you're already ID, but does get a boost from S6 if you kill someone; but as Buffo mentions, you're probably not going to get that first IC kill until turn 3 or 4 anyway, so you're not getting much long-term benefit...

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I just want to use an Agonizer and call it a day. I really miss the Biker Archon rocking a punisher and superdrugs.

[Mal]

You know that the Archon has a bunch of different weapon options that ignore armour and use his strength?

Yeah he does... and your going to take down 2 deamon princes with a S3 character right? or mabey buy this guy a cube an agoniser, power weapon and some other wargear....

Sure you can do it... but why in the blue hells would you want to?

Drop all the extra wargear, stick with the agoniser (which is now a lot cheaper and a real bargin) and just ignore the stupid cube... then you can spend the 50+ points you'd have wasted on this guy on wargear for other units.

Plus in the new codex you have to replace either his ccw or pistol for the extra weapons... so you take the agoniser to kill the first DP... and a power weapon for hacking troops with high Str... well you've lost your shooting attack and your bonus attack for 2 ccws.

Simply put there is no effective use for the cube that isn't a redundant waste of points.

[BuFFo]

Plus in the new codex you have to replace either his ccw or pistol for the extra weapons... so you take the agoniser to kill the first DP... and a power weapon for hacking troops with high Str... well you've lost your shooting attack and your bonus attack for 2 ccws.

If you have an Agonizer and a Power Weapon, you have 2 CCWs, thus you get a +1 Attack.

[Sondosia]

If you have an Agonizer and a Power Weapon, you have 2 CCWs, thus you get a +1 Attack.
Is it not it more like you have two different special weapons and do not get the bonus attack for having two one handed weapons?

[DarkLink]

Is it not it more like you have two different special weapons and do not get the bonus attack for having two one handed weapons?

It depends on if both are characterized as special weapons. They might just both be 2 CCWs that ignore armor, and so they can stack. You'd have to read the wargear entries.

[BuFFo]

Is it not it more like you have two different special weapons and do not get the bonus attack for having two one handed weapons?

You always get the bonus for +1 attack for wielding 2 CCW. Power Weapons are CCW, and the Agonizer is a Power Weapon.

What you cannot do is use BOTH of the weapon's special rules at the same time, but in this case, they are both power weapons, so it is impossible for you to 'stack' both abilities since doing so would make zero difference in the game.

But other than, yeah, if you have two different special weapons, both power weapons, but one increases your strength and the other, um, increases your weapon skill, you can only use one at a a a time, but you would still get +1 attack.

The + 1 attack isn't a bonus for USING two CCW at the same time. It is a bonus you get for just having two CCWs on the model.

[Xas]

the only use (of the cube) I see is in going with cube/huskblade.
the huskblade helps you kill the enemy IC as all you need is one wound (usually on 5+) and a failed invul.

then you are s6 and can go killing MEQs with a s6 power weapon that has the marginal bonus of IDing any other multi wound stuff you run across.

compared to staying with an agonizer all the time this seams a big improvement (against every multi wound modell that is not EW or t7 the huskblade is better since while you take longer to wound it hurts more).

if it is worth the cost you have to decide for yourself but even with all the funny stuff your archon isnt going to be as expensive as many other oufitted HQs he can easily waste with the huskblade and a decent protection (holo/mirror field)

[Sondosia]

But other than, yeah, if you have two different special weapons, both power weapons, but one increases your strength and the other, um, increases your weapon skill, you can only use one at a a a time, but you would still get +1 attack.


True you only get to use one of the weapons special rules, but you dont get the bonus attack for having two different special weapons as stated by the rule "Two different special weapons" at the bottom of P42 of the Rule Book.

[DarkLink]

True you only get to use one of the weapons special rules, but you dont get the bonus attack for having two different special weapons as stated by the rule "Two different special weapons" at the bottom of P42 of the Rule Book.

It depends on how those specific weapons are defined. Just because two different weapons have different rules doesn't necessarily mean that you don't get the bonus attack.

[BuFFo]

True you only get to use one of the weapons special rules, but you dont get the bonus attack for having two different special weapons as stated by the rule "Two different special weapons" at the bottom of P42 of the Rule Book.

After checking that rule on page 42, it seems you are entirely correct!

Thank you for helping me out.

[Sondosia]

After checking that rule on page 42, it seems you are entirely correct!

Thank you for helping me out.

No problem, it seems it was a sneaky change from 4th to 5th.


It depends on how those specific weapons are defined. Just because two different weapons have different rules doesn't necessarily mean that you don't get the bonus attack.

It would have to specificly stated by at least one of the weapons to do so though.

[Mal]

basically in th ed to stack them to get the bonus attack, the rules for the special weapons have to be identical... they are close, but because the agoniser is a power weapon that always wounds on a 4+ its not the same... its a minor difference, but 5th edition has made a point of making it harder to stack your character with lots of wargear without forcing half of it to go to waste..

This is why I think the cube is useless... inorder to take advantage of it you need to throw away half the HQ's points on redundant wargear.. all for mabey 1 turn of Str10, the gain simply isn't worth the cost.