45 Games with Dark Eldar [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

BuFFo

10-13-2010, 08:58 AM

I guess the purpose of this thread could be changed...

Tell the community your experiences with Dark Eldar. Your games. Your scenery. Your gripes, concerns, wants and needs.

Have fun!

Here are some battle reports from when I used to play Warhammer 40k with the Dark Eldar.

1500 Kabal Versus Orks - Game 1 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-orks-game-1-of-45.html)
1500 Kabal Versus Tau - Game 2 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-tau-game-2-of-45.html)
1500 Heamonculi Coven Versus Orks - Game 3 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-orks-game-3-of-45.html)
1500 Heamonculi Coven versus Ultramarines - Game 4 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-ultramarines-game-4.html)
1500 Cirque de Commorragh versus Ultramarines - Game 5 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/1500-cirque-de-commorragh-versus.html)
1000 Wych Cult versus Space Wolves - Game 6 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/1000-wych-cult-versus-space-wolves.html)
2500 Kabal versus Tyranids - Game 7 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/2500-kabal-versus-tyranids.html)
1500 Cult/Coven/Cabal versus Ultramarines - Game 8 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/12/1500-kabalcultcoven-versus-ultramarines.html)
1500 Coven versus Ultramarines - Game 9 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/12/1500-coven-versus-ultramarines_20.html)
2500 No CC Kabal versus Blood Angels - Game 14 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/2500-kabal-versus-blood-angels.html)
2500 Wych Cult versus Tyranids - Game 15 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/2500-wych-cult-versus-tyranids.html)
1500 Dark Eldar versus Tyranids (Army Swap!) - Game 16 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/1500-dark-eldar-versus-tyranids.html)
2500 Web Way Foot versus Eldar - Game 17 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/2500-web-way-portal-foot-army-versus.html)
500 Hellion Gangers versus Tau - Game 18 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/12/500-hellion-gangers-versus-tau-empire.html)
1000 Hellion Gangers versus Dirty 'Ard Boyz - Game 19 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/12/1000-hellion-gangers-versus-orks.html)
500 Hellion Gangers versus Chaos Space Marines - Game 20 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/12/500-hellion-gangers-versus-chaos-space.html)

Grailkeeper

10-13-2010, 10:12 AM

Sounds good.

Why not make it a round 50 instead of 45?- that way it would be easier to work out percentage of win/lose/draw.

Old_Paladin

10-13-2010, 10:20 AM

Sounds good.

Why not make it a round 50 instead of 45?- that way it would be easier to work out percentage of win/lose/draw.

He's playing 3 different style builds; Kabalite, Wych and Haemonculi.
So, 15 games per type.

DarkLink

10-13-2010, 10:28 AM

I think it would be interesting to follow an experienced DE player adapt to the new codex.

BuFFo

10-13-2010, 10:42 AM

Ugh...

I am going to expand on these later on, but I just ran into the biggest change for the Dark Eldar....

Horrorfexes are gone!!!! The most fun, tactful aspect of the Dark Eldar army, the ability to actually PIN units, is now gone. The GW design team has now, officially, killed Pinning, as now no army can do it reliably. What does this mean? Instead of putting Long Fangs down on the ground, I now have to suicide charge them with X unit to kill them. This has removed a lot of strategy and tactics the Dark Eldar codex 'had', and is reinforcing the brainless Alpha Strike strategy of the 4th edition Turn 1 kill.

Losing Horrorfexes is going to be my biggest adjustment. It has completely changed the way I look at the Codex when making an army.

POR QUE!?!?!?!?!?

Rissan4ever

10-13-2010, 10:48 AM

BuFFo

10-13-2010, 10:58 AM

I fail to see how you need to sacrifice a unit to kill some Long Fangs. Can't you just do a flyby with Reavers and drop some caltrops on their heads, then repeat until no Long Fangs are left standing?

No, I won't waste the time.

Long Fangs have 3+ Armor Save.

You say 'repeat' like the Reavers won't just die to Bolter fire in the following turn.

Dark Eldar units do not have the staying power to fool around like that. It would take, what, the entire game for reavers to kill Long Fangs, while the Long Fangs down two DE Vehicles a turn...

No thanks, I'll use Reavers for something else.

As for dealing with Long Fangs... I'll need to look through the book more to see what is worth taking.

- edit -

What save do reavers get if they Turbo Boost? I don't know jack squat about rules for Turbo Boosting Jetbikes.

Bigred

10-13-2010, 11:09 AM

Looking forward to it Buffo!

You've got to maintain your Dark Eldar street cred after all.

Old_Paladin

10-13-2010, 11:14 AM

What save do reavers get if they Turbo Boost? I don't know jack squat about rules for Turbo Boosting Jetbikes.

3+ Cover...
so they become space marines vs. conventional fire; but a flamer or two is dangerous, and a heavy flamer will do significant damage to them.

BuFFo

10-13-2010, 11:21 AM

3+ Cover...
so they become space marines vs. conventional fire; but a flamer or two is dangerous, and a heavy flamer will do significant damage to them.

Ahhhh....

Now that you have educated me, I think I see some merit with using Reavers to harass Heavy Support units...

I think my Reavers, under years of dust, are finally going ot see some play!

Thanks for the advice on the Reavers. Much appreciated! :eek:

DarkLink

10-13-2010, 11:26 AM

Ahhhh....

Now that you have educated me, I think I see some merit with using Reavers to harass Heavy Support units...

I think my Reavers, under years of dust, are finally going ot see some play!

Thanks for the advice on the Reavers. Much appreciated! :eek:

Yeah. I don't think you could rely on it completely to take care of Long Fangs, but it is definately a way of distracting the enemy and doing some damage, picking off a few of those missile launchers

BuFFo

10-13-2010, 11:46 AM

Yeah. I don't think you could rely on it completely to take care of Long Fangs, but it is definately a way of distracting the enemy and doing some damage, picking off a few of those missile launchers

That is perfectly fine...

Part of a good Dark Eldar strategy is misdirection. Having your opponents waste time trying to kill bait units while your more effective units stay alive longer.

In all my games, my Jetbike Archon will just move 24" towards the enemy, soaking up as much anti tank fire as possible, so that my more important Troop units can move into position/cover in the early game, to set myself up for the later turns.

Vindur

10-13-2010, 12:10 PM

I would certainly be interested in seeing the blog. And good luck in the endevour

Bigred

10-13-2010, 04:21 PM

Here's my first thoughts on Reavers:

They will make Dark Eldar players masters of terrain placement. In particular, you will want to make sure you find a pair or even better trio of total LoS blocking items that are within 36" of each other.

Then the Reapers turboboost between them every turn, never assaulitng, or shooting, and cut down small straggler squads, or even more importantly the smaller fire support infantry squads (read Long Fangs) folks like to stick in the rearfield.

I'm thinking 6 man squads with dual caltrops and no other extras to keep the cost down, either boosting into cover turn 1, or reserving based on whether you win thr roll for first turn.

Drew da Destroya

10-13-2010, 07:40 PM

As a definite DE fledgling (I've only played with the book for about a year, and I held off on models until, well, now) I'm pretty interested.

Reavers seem like they'll be a fun distraction unit... better against some armies, but anything that helps soften a squad up a bit is a good thing. They do have that pinning attack (Grav beam?), but pinning is such a longshot these days anyway.

I, too, am quite sad to see the horrorfex, terrorfex, and xenospasm go. Seems like a big missed opportunity on GW's part.

BuFFo

10-14-2010, 09:48 AM

What is this crap?

What is with all the new names for everything? Why is an Archite now a Succubus? What the frag is a Klavex? Hekatrix, seriously?

The Court of the Archon has the dumbest names I have ever seen.

I think GW took how ugly the current models are, and translated their ugliness into the new units and model names.

Am I alone in this? Maybe I am just being retarded, but for frags sake, the names look like some 5 year old thought them up.

Also, I am not a fan of our new Leadership stats. I rather enjoyed having 8 across the board, even with unit upgrades. Now we act like Marines with a Leadership 9 unit upgrade model. Not pleased. I liked my Leadership 8, and the challenges it brought.

Grisly Trophies? We can now reroll morale tests? Why does this exist? I know GW wanted to give noobs a leadership trick, like how every army has them, so their flimsy Wyches and Warriors don't run away form battle so easily, but I took pride in knowing my army had no Leadership tricks. At least our new leadership trick is tied to a flimsy transport, so it doesn't seem all that 'bad' to me.

Once again, I think I am in the minority in this as well.

But seriously, the names are what is pissing me off. The names don't even have a theme to them anymore. What am I supposed to 'feel'? Undead? Hellraiser? Ancient Greek Mythology? Kindergarten Thought Processes?

You know, raising Dark Lances from 10 points to 25 points doesn't bother me ONE BIT. It's the minor style changes that irk me, like these FRAGGIN UGLY NAMES, No more Pinning and Leadership increase for an army that is supposed to be full of back stabbing twits who'll run if it suits them to save their own skins!!!

- Stomps feet like a bratty child, or a mid 20's female who doesn't get what she wants -

BIGRED FIX THIS NOW!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Drew da Destroya

10-14-2010, 10:05 AM

Well, at least with the names, there's a good solution... Permanent Marker.

Succubus? Psh, you're an Archite now! Hekatrixe? Sorry, goddess of witchcraft, but now you're just a man-hunting, soul-sucking daemon. Klavex? Nope, that's the Incubi Master. Also... Klaives and Demiklaives? More like Punishers and Disemboweler Blades to me.

The thing that's been making me pretty sad recently is the total lack of a Jetbike HQ. I mean, I can see why they took it away from the Archon, from both a fluff and gameplay perspective. But seriously, the Archite needs one!

BuFFo

10-14-2010, 10:16 AM

Drew da Destroya

10-14-2010, 10:56 AM

hahaha... I had forgotten about that one. The thing doesn't even have multiple heads!

The Court of the Archon so far seems pretty meh, so I'm not gonna bother renaming a unit I'll never take... but their names are pretty questionable. Medusae? I mean, I guess the eye beam power almost makes sense... if you don't know anything about Greek mythology.

scadugenga

10-15-2010, 05:54 AM

Kymerae? KYMERAE?? KYMERAE?? KYMERAE??

WTF?!?!?!?!

Rob Leifeld couldn't come up with worse names if he tried!!!!

At least he wasn't in charge of drawing/designing the mini sculpts...

Ach, the crimes he committed in the comic world...

Master Bryss

10-15-2010, 07:16 AM

A Klaive? Is that a sculpting tool? A Klavex? A brand of tissue, surely. The Punisher sounded like a dangerous weapon, but the new names are jokes. Then again, by the look of things you might as well rename the Incubi Master the 'Exarch,' and call his new abilities 'Exarch Powers.' What next, a Phoenix Lord? Ah, wait...

Melissia

10-15-2010, 07:21 AM

Just because you're ignorant of the term doesn't mean it isn't one.

Klaive is an alternate spelling of Glaive, depending on which language you use it can mean different things. A sword on a stick as is the traditional interpretation of Glaive, or a large, triangular sword/knife such as this (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/389135627_171141f7cd.jpg), and a few other meanings with similar weapons (usually a sword or a polearm).

Master Bryss

10-15-2010, 08:35 AM

I did grasp that it would have a connection to glaives, however I don't see the new Incubi blades are particularly triangular. Hmm, in which case I shall call the new Incubi weapons Punishers, and the old Incubi weapons (which are actually polearms) Klaives.

DarkLink

10-15-2010, 09:07 AM

Glaives aren't necessarily triangular. As Melissia said, the definition is fairly broad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaive
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Klaive

Duke

10-15-2010, 09:49 AM

@buffo: this is a great idea, though I would like to see you throw in a "non-themed" list. Possibly something you didn't write yourself... You know, the typical internet power gaming list. The only reason I would Ike to see it in your analysis is to show everyone that Internet lists aren't the be all of list building and that a well thought out themed list can dominate. Perhaps throw in 5 games with the "internets omg pohwer list." consider it.

Duke

Mal

10-15-2010, 05:11 PM

I'd offer to write one of those intrazweb lists, but to be perfectly honest, his lists are not all that dissimilar to my own.

BuFFo

10-15-2010, 09:05 PM

BuFFo

10-23-2010, 12:02 PM

First match posted up.

I have played 5 total, and I will be updating the other 4 matches soon.

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/

Bigred

10-23-2010, 12:17 PM

Your a gentleman and a scholar Buffo.

Great batrep and extra points for keeping on the gameface and not tabling the noob when you had him mid-game.

Looking forward to seeing this series evolve and when you really get your DE sealegs, PM me. Key batreps like these are too good to not share with the readers on the BoLS frontpage.

-Larry

scadugenga

10-23-2010, 01:40 PM

Nice batrep, Buffo!

1) Love the visuals--reminds me of old-school WD when the mag was worth reading.

2) Way to walk the walk after talking--Game sounded like it was a lot more fun at the end that it could've been if you just tabled him.

3) That kinda massed poison fire is officially scary. It might just keep people playing mech if only to avoid being on the receiving end...

Archon Charybdis

10-23-2010, 03:21 PM

You touched on something in your summary that I've been wondering about myself--do the new poisoned weapons make up for the loss of dissies? It certainly sounds like it from your summary, which is something I'm very glad to hear. Warriors are a touch more expensive but are much more dangerous anti-infantry, while the Ravagers are cheaper and relegated to AT.

Mal

10-23-2010, 04:11 PM

DL Ravagers are still 105 points, that hasn;t changed, its the dissy ravagers that are cheaper... but to be perfectly honest, i've lost faith in my dissys... im thinking that collection of 20 odd splinter cannons i've got will come in handy when I come to build my pure kabalite list.

Archon Charybdis

10-23-2010, 05:25 PM

DL Ravagers are still 105 points, that hasn;t changed.

Yes, but I used to take two dissy ravagers as the bulk of my anti-infantry firepower. Now that they're no good for that role and DL-sniper squads aren't an option for AT I'll be running 3 DL ravagers instead. The anti-infantry role shifts more to the Warriors and the AT role to the Ravagers, and I save a few points overall.

razcalking

10-23-2010, 10:08 PM

Very nice battle report, looking forward to seeing more. I actually prefer the Vassal (?) images to photos, gives a much better sense of the tactics being used. Though one or two photos if the armies look decent would be nice as well.

BuFFo

10-23-2010, 10:54 PM

All duly noted :)

You don't want pictures of the armies around here.... Trust me.... Maybe if I played my IG, but I am not...

- edit -

I am not a blogger, and I think I messed up my blog somehow? Can anyone post a comment on my blog? I don't know if it is working or not. Can someone smarter than me, which is quite easy to accomplish, help me out?

- edit -

I got it... I changed templates, and that screwed me over. I got comments working now on my newer posts.

BuFFo

10-25-2010, 11:49 AM

Battle Report up!

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-tau-game-2-of-45.html

Mal

10-25-2010, 02:45 PM

Cool batrep, looks like you really came prepared for that matchup.

Im looking forward to your thoughts on the wyches and wych based units.

Image

10-25-2010, 07:39 PM

Read both batreps and both were really well-done! :)

Keep it up!

BuFFo

10-25-2010, 08:00 PM

Thank you guys!

As for a Wych Army, the next three Bat Reps are Haemonculi Based lists, so Wyches have to wait a bit...

Mal

10-26-2010, 01:27 AM

Heh thats cool, im adding a contingent of haemo's and wracks to my wych cult list... and im still hammering out the balance, so any thoughts on them will be most welcome also.

BuFFo

10-28-2010, 01:30 AM

New battle report is up!

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-orks-game-3-of-45.html

Mal

10-28-2010, 02:23 AM

*Edit*

Nevermind.

scadugenga

10-28-2010, 05:58 AM

Nice report!

Shows what the DE can do in a different way (yuck) and also highlights good and bad tactical decisions.

And best of all--1500 points, a more reasonable list size than you see a lot of times.

BuFFo

10-30-2010, 01:19 AM

Game 4 is up! Time to fight some Ultramarines!

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-versus-ultramarines-game-4.html

Mal

10-30-2010, 02:48 AM

BuFFo

10-30-2010, 08:47 AM

the chronos parasite engines will see a lot more use in wych/kabalite lists than in haemoculi lists for the exact reason you mentioned, you just don't need the pain counters so your wasting 200 odd points on them. (thats nother unit of wracks and points left over for upgrades)...

For me, my Kabal and Wych lists are doing fine by getting Pain Tokens on their own. I always take Ravagers for the anti-armor in those lists.

Cronos just suck *** in close combat. Like a Tomb Spyder. Nice on paper, horrid execution.

gcsmith

10-30-2010, 11:30 AM

My store this week ran a mini campaign with BIG battles and I got to use the shops dark eldar with the new rules. Lets just say reavers are well... Lets just say they are 22 points too expensive.
Witches while the succubus is fine, the general unit is kinda poo with s3 without poison.
But overall love the army, and deffinately think talos can be mean if i get to try one.

DrLove42

10-30-2010, 12:17 PM

See i rate reavers, relativly high in our stores sessions with them. Yes if they sit still they get shot to buggery in no time at all. I don't intend to use them as a troops choice, like regular Eldar Jetbikes, or even use them to deliver good weapons (well maybe 1, for any lurking artillery). They should never stop turbo boosting and slicing peoples heads off as they fly over. A unit of 3 with bladevanes and caltrops is 86 points.

Or give them a grav talon, force a pinning test on something, and bingo bango you've got a unit that can't shoot your fragile craft next turn. Imagine a Wolves player capable of killing all your raiders on turn 1 with his long fangs...pin them and you'll be shoving poison swords down their throat before they get back up off the ground....

gcsmith

10-30-2010, 12:55 PM

well I think that turn one problem can be fixed with turbo boosting Aeather sails

DrLove42

10-30-2010, 02:31 PM

Aether sails probably would help....but i'm neglect to Turboboost them all first turn. Yes you get a4+ save but yousacrifice a turns shooting. And because you're moving flatout you're destroyed on a immobilised. So any S4 weapon (or glancing) can kill you 33% of the time, and any S5+ penetrating hit, kills you 66% of the time. And if its a melta attack cos you've got nice and close those numbers go up to 50% and 83%

I don't rate aether sails....10 points that are better spent elsewhere....like giving Reavers a grav talon :P

gcsmith

10-30-2010, 02:57 PM

well since they are 5 rather than 10

DarkLink

10-30-2010, 05:16 PM

So any S4 weapon (or glancing) can kill you 33% of the time, and any S5+ penetrating hit, kills you 66% of the time.

Though they do need to roll 6's to do this. So a str 4 hit has a 2.7% chance of killing a Raider with a cover save. A Str 5 hit has an 8.3% chance.

Mal

10-30-2010, 06:07 PM

Though they do need to roll 6's to do this. So a str 4 hit has a 2.7% chance of killing a Raider with a cover save. A Str 5 hit has an 8.3% chance.

Only against close combat attacks, but why charge it to hit on 6's when your bolters cam spam it to death hitting on 3's?

DarkLink

10-30-2010, 07:22 PM

Only against close combat attacks, but why charge it to hit on 6's when your bolters cam spam it to death hitting on 3's?

That was just for automatically hitting, and with a cover save.

A single bolter shot has a 1.9% chance of hitting, rolling a 6, passing the cover save and then destroying the Raider.

A single Str 4 CC attack hitting on 6's would have a 0.8% chance of destroying the Raider. I assume that flickerfields don't work against CC attacks?

BuFFo

10-30-2010, 10:37 PM

Flickerfields give the Raider a 5++ Save, period.

eldargal

10-31-2010, 10:45 AM

Enjoying the battle reports, Buffington. Looking forward to seeing Lelith in action at some point.:)

BuFFo

10-31-2010, 11:10 AM

Enjoying the battle reports, Buffington. Looking forward to seeing Lelith in action at some point.:)

She will be up in two reports I believe...

Caldera02

10-31-2010, 11:31 AM

I like lelith and will be running her in my army. In my test games she still reliable can kill 2-3 marines herself. UNless you just roll bad but then abbadon can do that if you roll bad lol.

RIGHT-Titan

10-31-2010, 12:02 PM

Need moar batreps!

Nice work thus far.

BuFFo

10-31-2010, 10:45 PM

More crap is up.

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/10/1500-cirque-de-commorragh-versus.html

Duke

10-31-2010, 11:11 PM

Sounds like liquefier guns are pretty good. I habit spent much time with the codex, what do they do again?

Duke

BuFFo

10-31-2010, 11:39 PM

Sounds like liquefier guns are pretty good. I habit spent much time with the codex, what do they do again?

Duke

Template Strength 4 APd6

:)

Duke

10-31-2010, 11:42 PM

Not bad especially when you have a few in ine squad.

Duke

RIGHT-Titan

11-01-2010, 05:38 AM

Great stuff.

I'd love to see some batreps featuring hellions and scourges.

BuFFo

11-01-2010, 08:54 AM

Great stuff.

I'd love to see some batreps featuring hellions and scourges.

Hellions I won't be using until the very end. The rest of the internet is on that bandwagon.

Scourges... Will appear in two Battle Reports from now :)

RIGHT-Titan

11-01-2010, 09:37 AM

But they're so cool ;)

I have my hellions list all drawn up so I can wait lol... but I would love to know the viability of those winged devils.

Mal

11-01-2010, 10:39 AM

I too would like to see hellions in action, but since they are in wave release 1.5 and will not be avaliable until later in nov, I can wait :p

BuFFo

11-01-2010, 03:08 PM

Can the new Wych Cult spank some Space Puppies?

1000 Wych Cult versus Space Wolves - Game 6 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/1000-wych-cult-versus-space-wolves.html)

DarkLink

11-01-2010, 06:08 PM

Nice, didn't seem like the SW player stood a chance.

I will note, though, that I'm pretty sure that Defensive Grenades can't negate the +1A from Counter Assault.

BuFFo

11-01-2010, 06:54 PM

Nice, didn't seem like the SW player stood a chance.

I will note, though, that I'm pretty sure that Defensive Grenades can't negate the +1A from Counter Assault.

lol, I'll refer you to this post, since my fingers hurt...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/324509.page#2078433

As far as the rules are concerned, they do. As far as some house rules are concerned, they don't.

Caldera02

11-01-2010, 08:37 PM

I loved the Wych report. It echoed alot of what I found play testing my own version of Wych cult. Also agree on Lelith.... Love the model, love the fluff and I don't think she is terrible. Not an abbadon but for 175pts I'll field her everytime!

I appreciate your time in putting together those battle reports Buffo. I look forward to seeing more. I once had a choice of choosing DE or Tyranids long ago when I first started. I went with Tyranids but always wanted to play DE but despised the models. Now's my chance to play them!

DarkLink

11-01-2010, 09:37 PM

As far as the rules are concerned, they do. As far as some house rules are concerned, they don't.

Actually, now that I think about it, it's exactly the same issue as whether Counter Assaulting units get Furious Charge. If the CA unit counts as assaulting, then they both get Furious Charge and no bonus attacks due to Defensive grenades. Otherwise, they don't get FC but do get +1 A.

Now, GW is of the opinion that you don't get to stack FC and CA (Space Wolves FAQ). The problem is, the phrase "as if" can have one of two different meanings, and the context doesn't really define which it is. It's just a poorly worded rule.

BuFFo

11-01-2010, 10:25 PM

Actually, now that I think about it, it's exactly the same issue as whether Counter Assaulting units get Furious Charge. If the CA unit counts as assaulting, then they both get Furious Charge and no bonus attacks due to Defensive grenades. Otherwise, they don't get FC but do get +1 A.

Now, GW is of the opinion that you don't get to stack FC and CA (Space Wolves FAQ). The problem is, the phrase "as if" can have one of two different meanings, and the context doesn't really define which it is. It's just a poorly worded rule.

The reason why we, in my area, don't like that particular house rule is due to the fact that the rules should work both ways, but whoever submitted that question, and whoever approved of the answer are idiots.

So you get the benefit of Assaulting me when I Assault you? Fine. But then you don't get the disadvantage of Assaulting me when I Assault you? Makes ZERO sense.

It either works BOTH ways, or neither way at all. Which is why I don't use faqs. They are just personal rule opinions, and nothing more.

eldargal

11-01-2010, 10:37 PM

Our group has defensive grenades working against Counter Assault also, for the reason BuFFington stated. It is disturbung how many people think FAQs are official rulings when GW themselves say they are some of their own house rules.:rolleyes:

Also, yay Lelith!

DarkLink

11-02-2010, 10:11 AM

It either works BOTH ways, or neither way at all. Which is why I don't use faqs. They are just personal rule opinions, and nothing more.

That's what I'm saying, too. Though I don't think there's an FAQ on Defensive Grenades vs Counter Assault. I just go with that it doesn't work because that is consistent with the Furious Charge FAQ.

gcsmith

11-02-2010, 10:31 AM

I think the as if they are charging is to give a reason for +1 attack, but since they arnt charging anti charge bonuses dont work

Blackyujiro

11-02-2010, 10:50 AM

But then the rules could've simply stated Counter Assault grants +1 attk. Instead of SPECIFICALLY naming the +1 attk as an Assault bonus, which Defensive Grenades negate.

Edit: I hope posting this doesn't brake any forum rules.

Counter Assault :"If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault
bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had
assaulted that turn."

+1 Assault Bonus: Engaged models who assaulted
this turn get +1 attack

Defensive Grenades:"Models assaulting against units
equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault
Bonus attacks."

Reading these three rules, you can conclude that (A)Counter Assault IS a form of assaulting which (B)grants +1 Attk, therefore(C)is subject to the Defensive Grenade rule.

BuFFo

11-02-2010, 10:54 AM

I think the as if they are charging is to give a reason for +1 attack, but since they arnt charging anti charge bonuses dont work

The term "as if" means only one thing; to treat one thing as an exact copy of another.

If you are 'as if' charging, you can't be charging for one thing, but all of a sudden not charging for another.

Your mother gives 5 dollars to charity, and takes 5 dollars from the bank every day.

Today you are going to act "as if" you were your mother.

You give 5 dollars to charity "as if" you were your mother, and you take 5 dollars from the bank "as if" you were your mother.

You can't pick and choose here. You must do both.

Unless my gaming group really really REALLY needs to argue over a rule (like once every 6 months, since we are all used to each other), we will use a FAQ to speed things up, but most of the time, we just use Erratas and that's it.

Caldera02

11-02-2010, 11:24 AM

I dont think you can get any clearer than that. Although I can say that GW may have intended for counter assault to always work, but the wording of the rule says you cant. So they would have to come out and say thats what they intended.

Mal

11-02-2010, 11:52 AM

The best policy with a pure rules debate is to ignore what they intended (after all none of us here wrote the rules so who are we to say what the intention was?) and just stick to pure RAW, if the rules say so then it is so.

Caldera02

11-02-2010, 11:56 AM

I dont know if your agreeing/disagreeing with me lol. That is basically what I said, they may have intended foer it to work that way but we dont know that.

gcsmith

11-02-2010, 01:25 PM

I wasnt disagreeing with u buffo, infact I agreee with u how its worded. However, I think the SW faq gives some insight into intention

Blackyujiro

11-02-2010, 03:26 PM

DrBored

11-04-2010, 12:06 AM

Loving these reports. I can't wait to see more on the Court of the Archon, and the special uses for each of the models in the retinue. Those, Reavers, and Wyches are what interest me the most...

scadugenga

11-05-2010, 06:11 AM

More batreps Buffo!

You're slacking on us now... :)

BuFFo

11-05-2010, 10:25 AM

More batreps Buffo!

You're slacking on us now... :)

I know I slack, but I am not this time. Just got a busy weekend. Women, terrain making, 40k game or three, Magic the gathering, run my Shadowrun game, and more women....

Yeah, Bat Reps can wait a few days lol.

I do appreciate it you keeping me on track!

scadugenga

11-05-2010, 11:35 AM

I know I slack, but I am not this time. Just got a busy weekend. Women, terrain making, 40k game or three, Magic the gathering, run my Shadowrun game, and more women....

Yeah, Bat Reps can wait a few days lol.

I do appreciate it you keeping me on track!

Fair enough--you had it covered w/women & shadowrun. :)

Just tell me you're not playing 4th ed SR...

DarkLink

11-05-2010, 11:37 AM

Just read the SW faq. Man, GW loves them Sapce Marines, they find it "rich" for an assaulting unit using Defensive Grenades to gain a defensive bonus. But it's pefectly fine for the Counter Assaulters to gain an assault bonus, lol. Read your own rules GW! And stop contadicting yourselves. Funny thing is you could call Da Rulz Boyz(if you can still do that)and get different rulings.

Oh, man, yeah, I just went and read it. That makes no sense whatsoever.

On top of that, they've changed that wording several times already. When the FAQ was first released, it said you could benifit from FC. Then about two days later, they changed it to that you couldn't benifit. And now apparently they've changed it back, and added the reference to defensive grenades that directly contradicts that.

RIGHT-Titan

11-05-2010, 11:44 AM

By the way, any plans to show off reavers?

gcsmith

11-05-2010, 12:08 PM

well ive just read it and the sw faq says no furious charge from counter attack and no grenades against counter attack

DarkLink

11-05-2010, 12:26 PM

well ive just read it and the sw faq says no furious charge from counter attack and no grenades against counter attack

Oh, magnificent work, GW. Not only are your rules so messed up in the first place that you need to faq them, but there are several different versions of the faq floating around.

Calypso2ts

11-05-2010, 01:55 PM

The FAQ originally allowed furious charge with counter attack but that interpretation made a huge mess out of guard armies with (is it Straken?) and they changed it within a week.

DarkLink

11-05-2010, 04:34 PM

I knew that (in fact, I mention it a few posts ago). The problem is, though, if you just google 'space wolf faq', it gives you the one that allows FC, not the current one.

BuFFo

11-05-2010, 04:54 PM

By the way, any plans to show off reavers?

I just bought 12 Reavers, so yes, I will be using them.

I can't wait to hit a unit with 7 Bladevane attacks and 3 Cluster Caltop attacks!

Just tell me you're not playing 4th ed SR...

I am the Game Master for a 4th edition game. I am not fond of all the wireless crap in the game, but the players are enjoying it immensely, so for me the edition doesn't matter.

scadugenga

11-05-2010, 06:44 PM

I just bought 12 Reavers, so yes, I will be using them.

I can't wait to hit a unit with 7 Bladevane attacks and 3 Cluster Caltop attacks!

The reavers are going to probably make me end up collecting a smallish DE force. I'll never set aside my eldar though!

I am the Game Master for a 4th edition game. I am not fond of all the wireless crap in the game, but the players are enjoying it immensely, so for me the edition doesn't matter.

The wireless crap, and the essential removal of riggers prompted us never to start 4th. We're still enjoying the hell out of 3rd.

BuFFo

11-05-2010, 07:05 PM

The wireless crap, and the essential removal of riggers prompted us never to start 4th. We're still enjoying the hell out of 3rd.

Riggers are still in game. I don't see how they got removed?

If you want to talk about this, please make a thread elsewhere. I would love to discus this, but just not here :) Thanks!

scadugenga

11-05-2010, 11:14 PM

Mea culpa. :)

Now get on to your women, gaming, et al and post those reports!

RIGHT-Titan

11-06-2010, 07:01 AM

Buffo can you post a pic of your codex spiral bound & laminated? I'd never considered this before, and Id like to see the result of taking out the existing bindings.

BuFFo

11-06-2010, 07:54 AM

Buffo can you post a pic of your codex spiral bound & laminated? I'd never considered this before, and Id like to see the result of taking out the existing bindings.

Yeah I'll do it tomorrow... My camera is in my car, and I am lazy... LOL

BuFFo

11-07-2010, 11:15 PM

New report is up!

http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/2500-kabal-versus-tyranids.html

somerandomdude

11-08-2010, 07:37 AM

Great report! Splinter weapons are amazing, aren't they? Any chance you'll try out Splinter Racks?

I'd like to see how this army does against other high-profile lists (IG Vets, Thunderwolves, Vulkan). Obviously against Tyranids you have a nice advantage with your weaponry and speed. The list that you used, would you feel comfortable using it as an all-comers list after seeing it in action? Are there any changes that you think would be best?

Just curious, why no Hellions with the Baron?

Also, any possibility of seeing either of the two flyers, or Lady Malys? I know she hasn't gotten much press, but I've decided to remake my DE into the Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue after reading about her, and I actually think she'd be effective in games considering her low point cost (for a special character, that is).

Keep them coming!

DrLove42

11-08-2010, 10:03 AM

Monstrous creatures are what the DE excel at killing. No other squad in the game could rapid fire a Wraithlord or a C'tan and kill em in a single round of shooting. Plus one fot he best AT weapons available as standard on all transports (ok not the venom).

Trueborn shining through a bit then?

Damn i can't wait to get my army to the table

gcsmith

11-08-2010, 10:31 AM

Its really a shame that the only warriors I have so far are the ones I won in the shops costume contest.
Id like to get more but fantasy tourn in feb means I need more HE :(

somerandomdude

11-08-2010, 12:24 PM

One more comment BuFFo, and I hate to be "that guy" but I'm not sure if you're playing transports correctly. I don't have any experience with Vassal, but judging by the pictures, you are moving your vehicles at cruising speed, and you are having the embarked squads fire. While fast vehicles are allowed to fire as though they were traveling at a slower speed, nothing says that the passengers may (as far as I know).

If it does say it somewhere in the rules/FAQ and I've simply missed it, I apologize, and I'd like to know where for future reference.

Also, if my eyes were just playing tricks on me and you were moving at combat speed, then forget everything I've said!

gcsmith

11-08-2010, 12:31 PM

yep agree with u, u can only shoot at combat speed or below with passangers.

Drew da Destroya

11-08-2010, 03:45 PM

His Vassal images are more of an "impression" than an "actuality". The images don't represent the exact, actual movement. More just what he remembers as final positions.

BuFFo

11-08-2010, 03:49 PM

scadugenga

11-08-2010, 08:37 PM

Nice batrep Buffo!

Poison weapons are a dream match up against 'Nids and I think we may have seen the last of Nidzilla. If your opponent had a couple of venomthropes, it might've helped prolong the longevity of his units?

I'm discovering a whole new level of "oh crap!" when it comes to trying to gameplan against the DE. All the poison from the kabalite warriors pretty much makes Wraith-anything a no-go zone, and my scorpions will get shredded by incubi.

somerandomdude

11-08-2010, 08:59 PM

Rule #2 under my Battle Report notes at the very top of the Battle Report.

My bad. I read it on your earlier reports, but I have skimmed over that part lately and I didn't think it through. That makes sense.

BuFFo

11-10-2010, 09:27 PM

Great idea and initiative BUT...
What is the point of batreps other then a blatant display of how disgustingly OP dark eldar are when the opponents arent even informed of the cheezy rules that the DE have.

Hello to you to!

Take a look at the DE vs space wolf report, it wasnt somehting I consider a report even, simply a massacre vs some noob who didnt know jack about what he was facing.

1) During deployment I tell all my opponents what each unit does, and whether it is a CC unit, a Shooty unit, or a Mixed unit.

2) I allow my opponents to view my lists before and during the game.

3) I tell my opponents what is in each of my Transports.

I give my opponents every chance to know what is in my lists. If they CHOOSE to not look, for whatever reason, then that is on them.

Try it again with decent terrain that actually allows for some sort of shooting to take place and with an opponent that knows how to play and knows what he will be facing from the DE and THEN we can call it a true batrep.

4) My opponents ALWAYS puts out the terrain. I never put out a single piece.

None of this "ha, I lost 1 model while you lost your entire 1000p army" crap works other then push people to more and more to consider the DE to be pure OP trash. (I mean have you even lost one battle using them yet?)

I know, right?

newtoncain

11-10-2010, 09:55 PM

When is your next report coming out? I like the read.

BuFFo

11-10-2010, 11:16 PM

When is your next report coming out? I like the read.

I am currently trying to get my Dark Eldar ready for a day long Apocalypse game at my local store on Saturday. I have, like, 6 games ready to go up as a battle report, so there will be some up soon!

DarkLink

11-10-2010, 11:20 PM

Take a look at the DE vs space wolf report, it wasnt somehting I consider a report even, simply a massacre vs some noob who didnt know jack about what he was facing.

Isn't this true with every single new codex that has ever come out, ever? How are people supposed to get a game in with any new codex if their opponents afraid of losing due to a few of the unknown.

Remember, a big part of the reason why a lot of us are interested in these battle reports is to see what a good player can do with the new codex. Reading about Buffo curb-stomping people is the whole point of these battle reps.

razcalking

11-11-2010, 12:29 AM

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 12:45 AM

True, but it would be nice to see them go up against other hardcore lists. Not Buffo's fault by any means, he takes what he can get opponent-wise, but I'd like to see him up against Leafblower, Razorwolves, Double Lash, etc.

Hardcore lists? Boring to play against, but, they do exist in my area, so if those people are available to play, I will.

Duke

11-11-2010, 12:59 AM

Just thought I would let you know... I played against a de army tonight and rolled it quickly, I did learn a few things though.
- Wyches aren't that scary if they don't roll you on the charge
- wracks with liquifier guns are scary
- grotesques can take a stupid amount of fire
- flicker fields are worthless except for on a few ravagers.

What do think of these assessments buffo? I'll be going a battle rep on my blog if you ever want to read it.

Duke

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 01:11 AM

Just thought I would let you know... I played against a de army tonight and rolled it quickly, I did learn a few things though.

Roll that beautiful bean footage!

- Wyches aren't that scary if they don't roll you on the charge

Wyches is an odd unit. It may look like it is supposed to be strong on the attack, but Wyches excel in the defense. Wyches are best used against units like Nobs, or Vets with all power weapons, or 3 Carnifexes.

But once in a while, Wyches can do well on the charge.

- wracks with liquifier guns are scary

Liquifier Guns are definitely one of the unsung powers of the new codex most people online are passing right over.

Marines players in my area are starting to dislike those weapons very much.

- grotesques can take a stupid amount of fire

Probably my favorite unit in the entire codex. I have converted 10 Grotesques already, and they are amazing.

Some games they get locked up by a Dreadnought, while other games they just wade through units after units with thier instant kill flesh gauntlets and liquifier gun. Stick urien in this unit, and it is over. Strength 7 on the charge, and two instant kill weapons in the same unit?

Just watch out for Dreadnoughts lol!

- flicker fields are worthless except for on a few ravagers.

To each his own :) ALl my vehicles come with Flickerfields stock. My Raiders aren't 60 points anymore. My Raiders are 70 points base :P

What do think of these assessments buffo? I'll be going a battle rep on my blog if you ever want to read it.

Oh please do!!! I want to see you roflstomp some Dark Eldar!!

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 07:29 AM

True and I appreciate buffos reps but as I said, it does no good, neither for people who want to see what a DE list can do nor for people who want to learn how to face DE if each and every batrep is a ROFL walkover for the DE.

Let me phrase it this way:
What would you and other people say if I started a 45 batrep blog where I use various SM lists and in each batrep completely massacre every opponent?
I would be the laughing stock of the board I bet and no one would take me and my list builds seriously.

That is what I would like to see a bit more of, some actual "balance" in the batreps. As it is now when I klick on a new batrep the only thing that is "exciting" for me is to see weather the DE will roll over the opponent in turn 3 or in turn 4.

To bad buffo doesnt get to meet skilled and competitive players rather then noobs, that way the batreps would give a more true measure of the strenghts AND weaknesses of the new DE, as it is now all I can see are strenghts.

You are right. Every single battle report you have ever read online (or in a magazine), or ever will read online (or in a magazine) should only ever be between double lash versus double lash. I mean, 40k is such competitive serious business, just like GW intended.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Droofus

11-11-2010, 09:46 AM

First off, thanks for the batreps, I've been reading them regularly and checking back for new updates.

You are right. Every single battle report you have ever read online (or in a magazine), or ever will read online (or in a magazine) should only ever be between double lash versus double lash. I mean, 40k is such competitive serious business, just like GW intended.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

While I think Pyriel overstates the ease with which you dispatch your opponents, he does bring up a good point. While it wouldn't be a valid test of the DE to ONLY play hardcore opponents, it isn't really a good test to NEVER play them either. So a request, find one of the following lists in your area and play it: razorspam (can be of either the wolfy or bangly varieties), leafblower IG, or chaos with lash.

Obviously it's your army and you can do whatever you damn well please with it, but I think that those of us who go to tournies would appreciate seeing the DE take on something we'd see on table 1.

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 10:17 AM

First off, thanks for the batreps, I've been reading them regularly and checking back for new updates.

While I think Pyriel overstates the ease with which you dispatch your opponents, he does bring up a good point. While it wouldn't be a valid test of the DE to ONLY play hardcore opponents, it isn't really a good test to NEVER play them either. So a request, find one of the following lists in your area and play it: razorspam (can be of either the wolfy or bangly varieties), leafblower IG, or chaos with lash.

Obviously it's your army and you can do whatever you damn well please with it, but I think that those of us who go to tournies would appreciate seeing the DE take on something we'd see on table 1.

Here is the issue.

Only one, out of my 7 games I have put up at the time of this post, have I played a 'power' DE build.

He says I should only play against competitive lists, but why? I am not playing competitive lists either. The entire point of my 45 games is for me to play ALL the units, bad or good, in as many different combinations as I see fit to play them in.

I will have the occasional 'top tier' battles, but that is not going to be the norm. You may get one of those out of every 10 games from my reports.

So, if anyone is looking for mindless, boring net-listed armies bashing each other to death, go elsewhere. I can't be more blunt about this.

And about tournies. I don't know what fantasy world everyone lives in, but the kind of army you see on "table one" IS going to be the 'noob' list more often than not. I have played in tons of tournies in the past 9ish years, from local games, to Rogue Traders, to GTs, top 'Ard boyx, and since I started playing tournies not once has all 32 players been double lash, or triple Wraithlord, or Demon Bombs.

This is besides the point. My games are for FUN, and you'll get the occasional power game list here and there, but don't expect to see me fight 10 MECH IG armies in a row.

Droofus

11-11-2010, 10:26 AM

Here is the issue.

Only one, out of my 7 games I have put up at the time of this post, have I played a 'power' DE build.

He says I should only play against competitive lists, but why? I am not playing competitive lists either. The entire point of my 45 games is for me to play ALL the units, bad or good, in as many different combination as I see fit to play them in.

I will have the occasional 'top tier' battles, but that is not going to be the norm. You may get one of those out of every 10 games from my reports.

So, if anyone is looking for mindless, boring net-listed armies bashing each other to death, go elsewhere. I can't be more blunt about this.

You'll note that I didn't suggest you ONLY play against top tier lists, if Pyriel suggested that then I don't agree with him. I actually suggested just playing against one. I'd be overjoyed to see one in ten of your reports against such lists.

Again, thanks for the reports! Looking forward to the upcoming ones.

razcalking

11-11-2010, 10:53 AM

I guess when you're curb stomping every opponent, it's hard to see your lists as non-competitive.

They may not be optimized, but if your non-competitive lists are destroying every other non-competitive list they come up against, then either DE are OP or you need better opponents or tougher lists for it to be interesting.

That being said, your reports ARE outstanding in terms of presentation; they just need closer battles one way or another.

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 10:55 AM

My post got too wordy for it's own good.

Hopefully some of you multi quoted it before my edit :)

Defenestratus

11-11-2010, 11:32 AM

I wish to throw down the gauntlet to BuFFo.

Your choice BuFFo, face either the Eldar or Blood Angels. :P

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 11:33 AM

Bring them both. Bring both 1500 and 2500 point lists. Power game it, fun game it, whatever game it.

Defenestratus

11-11-2010, 11:36 AM

I lack the balls to power game :P

I'll just bring "stuff" that adds up to both 1500 and 2500 :P

somerandomdude

11-11-2010, 11:42 AM

Wow, I said a lot, and I am sure 99% of it will be multi quoted and taken out of context. Try to be creative with the come backs at least, okay :)

If only I had the time... if only... *stares listlessly towards the sky*

Seriously folks, it takes a lot to put these reports together, and he's 100% right about his lists. I understand that, if people don't have a clear understanding of DE, they may not realize that a list with a few troops of Wracks and a walking Grotesque unit isn't the most optimized. Trust me though, that is not a competitive list (although it is fun!)

Looking at that latest battle report, there's nothing that Tyranid player could've done differently to make it much closer, other than changing their list (more Hive Guard, maybe some Harpies, etc.) The amount of darklight weaons + splinter weapons + higher initiative means that Dark Eldar should roll over Tyranids (and anyone who didn't realize that when the codex was revealed probably has a a tough time with this game). BuFFo is simply trying to showcase the new dark eldar and what they have to offer.

That said, I will repeat my previous questions BuFFo. What would you change differently about this Ard Boyz list? Do you think anything you included wasn't as effective? Do you feel it is balanced an able to take on all-comers? Obviously with only one game with that list it might be tough to know, but I thought I should ask.

Also, I'll repeat my request for the flyers and Lady Malys. Also, what's your feeling about the various arcane wargear?

Stop arguing with everyone and start posting some more reports!

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 11:50 AM

I lack the balls to power game :P

I'll just bring "stuff" that adds up to both 1500 and 2500 :P

Add me on AIM... Oh wait, you are that same guy? lol

If anyone wants to chat with me, hit me up on AIM. My AIM name is under my profile, or the little AIM piccy on the left!

That said, I will repeat my previous questions BuFFo. What would you change differently about this Ard Boyz list?

Um...

I am not sure. I am still trying to figure out the entire army actually.

Maybe take out one Warrior squad for a second Wych squad?

Do you think anything you included wasn't as effective?

Everything I included did their jobs exactly as I planned.

Do you feel it is balanced an able to take on all-comers?

Yes, I do. There is a balance between anti-horde and anti tank that I like.

Also, I'll repeat my request for the flyers and Lady Malys. Also, what's your feeling about the various arcane wargear?

Dude, I listened to you, and your wish was granted. I played a game last night with two Razorwings... It'll be up on my Blog next week as it is at the bottom of the list to be put it.

And yes, they were included against a Space Wolves power list, the kind with Long Fangs out the butt, lol :P

Stop arguing with everyone and start posting some more reports!

Once the Apocalypse game I am getting ready for this Saturday is over, I will get right on it Master :p :p

Drew da Destroya

11-11-2010, 11:59 AM

Is that Apocalypse game going to show up as a battle report?

Probably would take forever to do the images, but it'd be fun to read at least a writeup of how it went.

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 12:07 PM

Is that Apocalypse game going to show up as a battle report?

Probably would take forever to do the images, but it'd be fun to read at least a writeup of how it went.

I highly doubt it, lol.....

It is just going to be a giant fluster cluck of players moving about and killing everything on turn 1 lol

somerandomdude

11-11-2010, 12:28 PM

Sorry, I wasn't trying to pressure, just wanted to redirect the conversation to what you wanted (units we'd like to see).

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 12:35 PM

Sorry, I wasn't trying to pressure, just wanted to redirect the conversation to what you wanted (units we'd like to see).

Well, my friend just called, and he wants a Tyranid rematch, so I am off to play him.

He will be proxying Tervigons...

Mal

11-11-2010, 02:30 PM

The problem with a lot of opponents against DE is that they simply can't adapt midgame to the tactics required to beat DE, so this may make DE look OP, but infact, they are not, they simply have the element of suprise... and any good general will tell you that is invaluable.

Once people have seen a bit more of them then the battles will average out a bit more (and over 45 matches you will see this), with the exception of nids.. nids is just one of those armies that is fail against DE, DE have all the tools for wiping out pretty much every nid build out there in a single list.

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 05:23 PM

Morg

11-11-2010, 06:30 PM

Hey Buffo is it possible to put Grots into a raider, also what is their minimum unit number? Running a small boat force with 2 wwp's in 1750, as a 2 stage Kab/Coven army; and i have about 300 pts i can shuffle around to fit in a big unit of grots+ Hmonc, any suggestions? My book is on its way, just waiting on the mail guy...

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 07:06 PM

Hey Buffo is it possible to put Grots into a raider, also what is their minimum unit number?

Grots can ride in Raiders, but they count as 2 models instead of one. The min you can have for the Grot unit is 3.

Morg

11-11-2010, 07:23 PM

Hrm ok thanks, reckon itd be worth trying to load an Archon & Hmonc with Animus Vitae/Ven Blade into a raider with 4 grots? Thinking about having a unit with 2 tokens from the beginning, giving an IC hunter archon furious charge, makes that huskblade pretty reliable on the first charge; then the Hmonc to farm out pain tokens to other units.
Loving the batreps, keep em coming :D

scadugenga

11-11-2010, 09:14 PM

Grots can ride in Raiders, but they count as 2 models instead of one. The min you can have for the Grot unit is 3.

It's a sad assessment of my level of awareness right now that I wondered how the hell orks had access to Raiders...

BuFFo

11-11-2010, 09:25 PM

It's a sad assessment of my level of awareness right now that I wondered how the hell orks had access to Raiders...

Big fat Grots trying to fit in trukks... Obese little suckers.

scadugenga

11-11-2010, 09:31 PM

Big fat Grots trying to fit in trukks... Obese little suckers.

I guess that's what happens when they steal all the shrooms...

Drew da Destroya

11-12-2010, 02:57 PM

Yeah, because that was what I meant...
You missed my point with so many miles it´s not even funny.

I think you missed his sarcasm by a couple of nautical leagues.

I'm not even entirely sure that's a unit of measurement, honestly, but it's still appropriate.

BuFFo

11-12-2010, 04:58 PM

Yeah, because that was what I meant...
You missed my point with so many miles it´s not even funny.

Keep trying to showcase the DE strengths and "weaknesses" by roflstomping all and any opposition by turn 4 if you think that was what GW intended to do all along.

You know we can still be friends, right?

scadugenga

11-12-2010, 05:38 PM

You know we can still be friends, right?

You may need to send him flowers first. He seems pretty put out...

Duke

11-13-2010, 12:48 AM

FYI Buffo, I posted my bat rep for your reading pleasure... Its on my blog.

Oh, and Grots can do anything... Except long division.

Duke

BuFFo

11-13-2010, 07:55 AM

FYI Buffo, I posted my bat rep for your reading pleasure... Its on my blog.

Oh, and Grots can do anything... Except long division.

Duke

Alright, I have soiled myself in your home.

Old_Paladin

11-13-2010, 08:38 AM

Keep trying to showcase the DE strengths and "weaknesses" by roflstomping all and any opposition by turn 4 if you think that was what GW intended to do all along.

I've been reading your posts in this thread, and it makes me wonder if you're even reading Buffo's games or just a complainer.

He hasn't won every game actually. He lost one and took a draw on one. So while he has a good record, it's not a perfect record and some of the games for come very close. You cannot just look at 2 of the games (vs. Wolves and vs. 'Nids) and say that they army is totally unbalanced.

You also have to recognize that Buffo has played the army for over a decade, he knows how the army works in order to maximize they're strength and minimize the weaknesses.
And the army has MAJOR weaknesses (I'd know, I played the army poorly for over 5 years). You don't have a single armoured vehicle with a AC over 11 and nearly every trooper is toughness 3 with essentually no body armour (but are still quite costly).
Basically it's like telling a Guard player to double the cost of all his infantry and all his tanks have to be mounted on rhino bases; yup, certainly an overpowered army.

BuFFo

11-14-2010, 11:35 AM

I wish to throw down the gauntlet to BuFFo.

Your choice BuFFo, face either the Eldar or Blood Angels. :P

It was a pleasure meeting you in person at my local gaming store.

You have a beautiful Eldar army!

Sparfunk

11-14-2010, 04:13 PM

BuFFo! let me first say thankyou for taking the time to write the battle reports, its been interesting to see a lot of examples of different unit choices/set ups and what theyre capable of within the game.

im a new DE player, and ive fallen in love with the kabalite models so ive most enjoyed reading your kabalite bat reps and they have given me a good few ideas for army lists and unit set ups.

i was wondering if you could check out http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=11511 which is a kabalite list that i have come up with by modifying your first and 2nd lists and adding in the trueborn/venom idea from the big nid game.

in the game vs orks the incubi didnt do a whole lot, but in the game against tau the archon and the incubi did a great job of cutting through swathes of fire warriors... would you say having a solid combat unit such as these is necessary for smaller (1500pts ish) games, or could they (like in my army list) be swapped for more firepower?

anyway, your page is now bookmarked and i will check it regularly, its great reading and i look forward to the next update!

BuFFo

11-14-2010, 09:51 PM

Defenestratus

11-15-2010, 07:27 AM

It was a pleasure meeting you in person at my local gaming store.

You have a beautiful Eldar army!

You too BuFFo. Thanks for the compliments on the army - I've had some time to work on them, and the apoc game we just played got me motivated to work on them more now.

Still need to face down your DE in a game though. I might make it out there this weekend - maybe not. Depends on if the wife is working night shifts or not.

I'll bring my BA this time. You guys have a cool group at your store.

Duke

11-17-2010, 12:24 AM

Buffo, we posted another bat rep for your viewing pleasure over on the inferno... C and c welcome.

Also, have you started painting/repainting your de?

Duke

scadugenga

11-17-2010, 07:03 AM

More batreps, Buffo!

Drew da Destroya

11-17-2010, 08:55 AM

More batreps, Buffo!

Seconded! I only have 3 more boss-free days (including today, it's early), and I demand entertainment!

Or else we'll be forced to throw you into the arena, and see how well you do against the clawed fiends!

Defenestratus

11-17-2010, 04:12 PM

Good news BuFFo. I got a kitchen pass for saturday and can come rumble. I've got a 1500 pt blood angels list ready. I'll make another just for flavor.

Look for a free report soon :)

BuFFo

11-17-2010, 08:15 PM

Good news BuFFo. I got a kitchen pass for saturday and can come rumble. I've got a 1500 pt blood angels list ready. I'll make another just for flavor.

Just bring your WAAC power gaming list... I don't want to force you to play outside your comfort zone... :eek:

KINGS

11-17-2010, 10:05 PM

As a new and upcoming DE player BigRed pointed me this way and am loving your battle reports. You have already confirmed some of my suspicions about several units that I would have had no chance to play test. I was also surprised that shardnets are so good but I had not considered doubling them up on an Independent character... ouch!

Have you thought about using Beastmasters yet? I am really liking the conversion opportunities and have been thinking of some combinations on paper but haven't gotten any games in yet. Any plans to add them to your play test rotation?

Defenestratus

11-17-2010, 10:56 PM

Just bring your WAAC power gaming list... I don't want to force you to play outside your comfort zone... :eek:

Oooh my BA all scout army? Ok!
:P

BuFFo

11-17-2010, 10:58 PM

DrLove42

11-20-2010, 04:22 PM

Now.... I have EXTREME A.D.D., so if my blog slacks, someone yell at me to keep going!

Ahem. YELL!

Defenestratus

11-20-2010, 10:02 PM

Ahem. YELL!

Don't worry - today BuFFo and I played and the video batrep is being spliced together.

Its not G-rated either. Language ****s be warned.

Duke

11-20-2010, 10:06 PM

I want linkage to that batrep... Good thing it isn't G-rated, with Buffo Im sure the whole batrep would be @(&^(#)*#@R%)*#@%&)*#@&)*)*#R)!!! or something like that, lol.

Duke

Uncle Nutsy

11-20-2010, 11:18 PM

I want to see what happens when you run Incubi and Reavers together.

Defenestratus

11-20-2010, 11:39 PM

Ok this damn battle report turned into a damn 13minute long ordeal and its taking forever to encode. I've got four processors sucking down 100% of the cycles and its still gonna take 40minutes to encode.

I'll upload it int he morning to teh tube.

BuFFo

11-20-2010, 11:57 PM

Yeah, we played a wonderful game yesterday, and it will be a video battle report.

There is NO hurry to get it up, as I have 7 other battle reports to get to :)

Take your time bra.

Defenestratus

11-21-2010, 10:40 AM

Yeah, we played a wonderful game yesterday, and it will be a video battle report.

There is NO hurry to get it up, as I have 7 other battle reports to get to :)

Take your time bra.

Youtube killed the video quality and desynched it with the audio. Boo. I still have much to learn about the ins and outs of video post-production.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMvXaWDal4Y

scadugenga

11-21-2010, 11:00 AM

Nice vidrep, guys!

Who'd have thought that Buffo would sound like a bostonian?

Caldera02

11-21-2010, 11:19 AM

The internet is retarded, LOL!

Defenestratus

11-21-2010, 11:28 AM

Almost every single one of his vehicles would have been dead by the end of turn 3 if those damn flickerfields weren't there.

BuFFo

11-21-2010, 12:03 PM

You all know you like my gray models :)

Almost every single one of his vehicles would have been dead by the end of turn 3 if those damn flickerfields weren't there.

Yeah, well, when I didn't have Flickerfields, I had 10 point Dark lances, instead of the 25 points they are now...

So count yourself lucky you never had the privilege of facing true DE DL spam :)

Now this was a fight! I had a single model left, and you had, what, 6 models left as well?

I can't wait for the rematch!

Cavscout

11-21-2010, 01:39 PM

Nice report. Buffo, how close are you to Savannah? I'm starting DE, but I still have an obcene amount of nids to play :)

BuFFo

11-21-2010, 02:03 PM

Nice report. Buffo, how close are you to Savannah? I'm starting DE, but I still have an obcene amount of nids to play :)

Savannah? We aren't even in the same state, lol. We are far apart, my friend.

Drew da Destroya

11-21-2010, 08:56 PM

That was a fun watch, seems like a crazy game. Also, my gaming group totally has that spaceport terrain piece... although it's starting to fall apart. We've also got the old Fortress/Bunker and Power Plant.

I liked the skyboard-riding incubi for the baron. I just put my Incubi semi-together (left the heads and weapons off for painting) last night.

scadugenga

11-21-2010, 09:37 PM

Nice report. Buffo, how close are you to Savannah? I'm starting DE, but I still have an obcene amount of nids to play :)

It's about 314 miles per google.

Not a short hop and a game range, I'd think.

Farseer Uthiliesh

11-22-2010, 02:12 AM

Youtube killed the video quality and desynched it with the audio. Boo. I still have much to learn about the ins and outs of video post-production.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMvXaWDal4Y

+1 Like.

newtoncain

11-22-2010, 12:43 PM

Thanks for the report.:)

Cavscout

11-22-2010, 01:34 PM

Yeah, its not the same state, but I go to Jax frequently to visit family. I might be able to talk the wife into letting me go for half a day. Long distance is no big deal for me. I'm also just sayin, if you ever get up here, drop by Morningstar games.

Defenestratus

11-22-2010, 02:18 PM

I used to play at morningstar games from time to time.

Is it still hot as garbage in the summer in that corner of the building where there's a low ceiling?

Dirty Frenchman plays there.

Cavscout

11-22-2010, 05:23 PM

No, he moved last thanksgiving into a store that has 4X the room. He has 9 tables (i built them) and just as much room for products. He has a 30 ft wall of Games workshop products. Its a really nice store now. Its accross from the Pig at Montgomary Crossroads/Abercorn.

Sparfunk

11-22-2010, 06:24 PM

great bat rep, interesting as always! though i would venture to suggest that the BA army is still quite shooty, with 6 predators :P

Defenestratus

11-22-2010, 07:32 PM

great bat rep, interesting as always! though i would venture to suggest that the BA army is still quite shooty, with 6 predators :P

I prefer the term "Balanced" :P

Sparfunk

11-22-2010, 09:05 PM

lol :P

can i ask, as i dont have the BA codex to hand (which is annoying me, as i bought the stupid thing when it came out!) but how many points do the 6 predators you used in that bat rep come to?

(apologies for the slight off-topic tangent)

Defenestratus

11-22-2010, 09:49 PM

Remember its a 2500 pt game.

Each one of the Baal preds with Donkeygun and Heavy Bolters is between 140 and 150 and the regular preds with the autocannon turret and lascannon sponsons was between 130 and 140..

Sorry for the vagaries but I dont know what the "saying how many points something is" rule on bols is.

DarkLink

11-22-2010, 10:58 PM

As long as you're not copy/pasting unit entries or something, you're good. Posting the final total price of a unit is cool, I'm pretty sure.

Sparfunk

11-22-2010, 11:07 PM

thats precise enough to give me an idea of the costs heh :) cheers.

Torcano

11-24-2010, 01:55 PM

Great BPs.

Most amusing thing has to be the PAGES of kids complaining, essentially, that Buffo is TOO GOOD.

If it is SO UNINTERESTING for you to read BPs of a good player, then STOP. And the ones who clearly aren't even reading them , just freaking complaining about them...do you really have NOTHING else to do with your time?

Defenestratus

11-24-2010, 02:28 PM

BuFFo and I play again Friday.

I'm likely bringing craftworld Eldar :P

Unzuul the Lascivious

11-24-2010, 02:39 PM

Nice! Looking forward to it. Another video report? It was entertaining and you guys made me chuckle a few times too, which is always nice - you're not too beardy. Buffo, any chance of seeing some Hellions at work? Can't remember if you've fielded those
yet.

Defenestratus

11-24-2010, 02:42 PM

Yeah I'll video it again - and try not to kill the video quality in post-production :P

BuFFo

11-24-2010, 08:40 PM

Defenestratus

11-26-2010, 07:02 PM

We'll see if I can put 20 of them together for Friday...

That was a ridiculously large squad.

Here's the video peeps. Have fun with it. I think my greasy finger smudged the lense for the last cut. Sorry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIctf18N4OE

BuFFo

11-26-2010, 09:44 PM

Yup yup, new video battle report is up!

2500 Web Way Foot versus Eldar - Game 17 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/2500-web-way-portal-foot-army-versus.html)

newtoncain

11-26-2010, 10:34 PM

1s loss = bummer

Wack list would have done better. But 40k is Rock-Paper-Scissor (RPS).

Thanks again for the report and keep them coming.:cool:

BuFFo

11-27-2010, 12:12 AM

1s loss = bummer

Wack list would have done better. But 40k is Rock-Paper-Scissor (RPS).

Thanks again for the report and keep them coming.:cool:

I got a loss in a previous battle report already!

In the end, what did me in was the Web Way portal. I would have done better if I had just deployed all my units out and just charged forward. My Grotesques would have lived longer, and would have got to his rear lines to mash some face.

Remember, it took two full rounds of his entire 2500 point army to kill my Grotesque unit. Imagine the game if everything started on the board!

Defenstratus is a wonderful person to play against, and I think it is just cool I met someone on BoLs and can actually play with the person on real life. I wish I could find more BoLs posters to fux around with.

- edit -

It doesn't help that I never noticed Hellions are now Strength 4 at all times, not just on the charge.... Sigh sauce...

Porty1119

11-27-2010, 09:33 AM

I'd agree. While I do think that losing a bit absolutely makes you a better player, there are so many batreps on YouTube with the host losing. (Read: Mine)

Defenestratus

11-27-2010, 10:05 AM

I got a loss in a previous battle report already!

In the end, what did me in was the Web Way portal. I would have done better if I had just deployed all my units out and just charged forward. My Grotesques would have lived longer, and would have got to his rear lines to mash some face.

Remember, it took two full rounds of his entire 2500 point army to kill my Grotesque unit. Imagine the game if everything started on the board!

Defenstratus is a wonderful person to play against, and I think it is just cool I met someone on BoLs and can actually play with the person on real life. I wish I could find more BoLs posters to fux around with.

- edit -

It doesn't help that I never noticed Hellions are now Strength 4 at all times, not just on the charge.... Sigh sauce...

I don't know man, I wouldn't give up on the WWP's just yet. I think that reserving your whole army to come out of them might not be the best tactic when you don't have something like an Autarch to give you +1 to reserve rolls, or descent of angels that lets you re-roll reserve rolls.

Putting one or two units in there, like the talos or maybe wyches in reserve to use the portals might be a better idea. Think of it as an indestructible transport that you don't get to choose when your unit comes out.

You are right though that the grotesques would have lived longer if you put more out on the first two turns for me to shoot. That being said, they lasted a helluva long time.

Archon Charybdis

11-27-2010, 10:22 AM

I don't know man, I wouldn't give up on the WWP's just yet. I think that reserving your whole army to come out of them might not be the best tactic when you don't have something like an Autarch to give you +1 to reserve rolls, or descent of angels that lets you re-roll reserve rolls.

Putting one or two units in there, like the talos or maybe wyches in reserve to use the portals might be a better idea. Think of it as an indestructible transport that you don't get to choose when your unit comes out.

I think Defenestratus is spot on. DE are fragile enough, and with the lack of reserves manipulation, we can't afford to have only one on the board unit carrying the portal for everyone else to come out of. I haven't had the opportunity to really play it yet, but I imagine keeping just a handful of units with long effective ranges like Hellions, Scourges, or Beastmasters in reserves to pop out of the WWP would be pretty handy. Using faster/long-ranged units lets you not have to be too aggressive in where you drop your WWP, and/or allows you to still be in range to do some damage if your opponent starts running away from the portal.

Qinsane

11-27-2010, 01:22 PM

arch_inquisitor

11-27-2010, 03:26 PM

I feel that people will start to think of DE codex as overpowered or broken or whatever, its irrelevant but the point is the DE Codex has changed the meta game simply by sheer volume of new DE armies that will be out there. Now what I would like to see in your battle reports are lists that reflect this, for example find an opponent with a vanilla Marines list that actually has a chance against a DE list. That sounded more snarky than it was intended, what I'm getting at is lets see the DE vs. some slightly more evolved lists.

I really only have anecdotal evidence of my assertion on the meta change, but I am convinced.

Defenestratus

11-27-2010, 05:06 PM

what I'm getting at is lets see the DE vs. some slightly more evolved lists.

Six predator list isn't "evolved"?

gee. Sorry.

You know what the sad part is - and BuFFo can attest to this... is that I was going to put just a regular plain jane doom/fortune/guide farseer in my last game instead of Eldrad. But then I said "but then the BoLS people wouldn't think I was taking the game serious if I didn't include Eldrad, so I put him in."

arch_inquisitor

11-27-2010, 06:00 PM

BuFFo

11-27-2010, 06:53 PM

For your Kabal army would you be opposed to trying out 9 kabalites with a Haemy and hex rifle in a raider? In my head It seems like the squad would do well with the addition of FNP if/when the raider goes down.

If I were to do this, it would be 9 Wracks with the Heamonculus. Toughness 4 for +1 points is worth it in my opinion over the Kabalite Warriors.

DarkLink

11-27-2010, 10:19 PM

Six predator list isn't "evolved"?

gee. Sorry.

Yeah, some of the people here have gotten pretty whiny over weird stuff. Earlier some people were complaining about how Buffo was playing a brand new codex that no one had ever faced before and winning with it:rolleyes:. No joke.

scadugenga

11-27-2010, 11:59 PM

Six predator list isn't "evolved"?

gee. Sorry.

You know what the sad part is - and BuFFo can attest to this... is that I was going to put just a regular plain jane doom/fortune/guide farseer in my last game instead of Eldrad. But then I said "but then the BoLS people wouldn't think I was taking the game serious if I didn't include Eldrad, so I put him in."

Screw the establishment--play with non SC's. :)

That said--another good vidrep.

Anyone complaining about 1) Buffo showcasing how uber the new 'dex is, or 2) that only new dex's have a chance against DE need their heads examined.

btw, Defenestratus--liked the abundance of st. 6 weaponry to negate the FNP of all the T3 units.

Defenestratus

11-28-2010, 07:00 AM

btw, Defenestratus--liked the abundance of st. 6 weaponry to negate the FNP of all the T3 units.

In the game I used with the Eldar?

The only str 6 I had was the Wave serpents (based just upon the models I had) and the warp spiders who I put in there to counter some of the mobility of the DE. The overall theme of the firebase unit was that every single unit in the building caused pinning. The warwalkers were supposed to use plasma missiles more than the krak but they were too busy shooting at grotesques then they got charged by a huge mob of hellions :P

arch_inquisitor

11-28-2010, 09:28 AM

BuFFo

11-28-2010, 12:44 PM

DarkLink

11-28-2010, 12:48 PM

Yeah, I'd say you can't get much better than 6 predators to blow away all those AV 10 skimmers, then mow down the troops inside.

Screw the establishment--play with non SC's. :)

Nah, screw the establishment, and play what you want. Subtle difference, but an important one.

Lockark

11-28-2010, 02:16 PM

Realy enjoyed your videos. Hope the rest of your Battle reports are done this way.

arch_inquisitor

11-28-2010, 02:19 PM

Non DE playes have had 12 years to 'evolve' against DE. The new codex does nothing new for the DE that they haven't done for over a decade.

If players haven't learned to play against DE by now, I doubt they ever will.

People will STILL have MEQ/MECH on the mind, and always meta game to beat a parking lot filled with Rhinos and Chimera over what DE can field.

I will enojy playing the one army opponents are never prepared to face, especially now that all our units are playable. There isn't a single lame duck in the bunch.

Now I have to disagree with that, I know a decent DE player and has been playing since the old, old dex right up to the current one. I have read both, to say that the new book brings nothing new is a vast understatement. I could go on a tirade list of things that changes how one has to deal with them, starting with a crazy increased survivability rate, but thats another thread.

And your missing part of my point and that is this army will become like IG and SW as A. much of the Simple/Finesse that was required with the old Codex has been simplified in my mind and it is much easier to win with them and when people start seeing them take tournaments the sycophants will flock and B. The models. I guess I'm saying like it or not the number of DE players will increase altering the meta.

I was merely suggesting you make your 'test' results more interesting by reflecting a (for now hypothetical) change to the meta.

The models are beautiful and as you said yourself now much more playable. The 12 years before this count for little to be honest considering what the DE were before, that is crap models, a difficult to use codex and limited usable units.

I know I'm gonna be hated for this but BuFFo you seem to be in denial over the awesome that is the new codex. That or your trying to steer noobs away from stinking up your army like the did IG and SW.

Defenestratus

11-28-2010, 03:59 PM

When I said 'evolved' I meant I would like to see the DE lists that BuFFo is fielding take on lists that take the DE into consideration.

Right now its sorta like the first tournament after the new codex comes out, nobody is prepared for it, and it steam rolls most lists that are geared to a different meta. I'm not saying I want to see tailored lists either as that would be just as skewed and predictable.

What I saying is current meta lists have little to deal with an army that behaves as the new Codex DE . They were annoying before and now the have almost as many saves as a MEQ army (glass sword my butt).

Am I saying other armies a screwed and now only DE can do teh ' wins' no not at all but they will have to 'evolve'.

So let me get this straight...

You want me to specifically tailor my list against DE when I play BuFFo just to satisfy your wholly misguided insistence that the DE are going to be making up a huge amount of tournament entries now?

While I tried to field two 2500 pt lists that would be competitive in a bigger tournament. My six predator list is meant to knock transports out of the sky with autocannon/lascannon preds and then dakka the pooor schmucks inside with a donkeygun/HB baal. Its a 1-2 punch that worked pretty damn well. If I had played my troops a bit more cautiously I might have won the first game. My most recent eldar list was pretty much custom made to deal with DE.

All pinning weapon firebase with a focus on light armor removal followed by a hammer (as hammer as the CE can do), two fast moving scoring units and a harassment unit that was put in there in lieu of a second counter assault unit because ... I was playing DE and str 6 is just the cat's tits against DE.

This list would NOT do very well against, say a 3 land raider SM list, or even a bug list. It'd get laughed off the board by a SW or IG list.

Instead of telling you what I took and why I took it, you tell me, what would you like for my Blood Angels and Eldar to field in order for BuFFo to show all the noobs how undeniably awesome the DE codex is?

BuFFo

11-28-2010, 05:00 PM

Instead of telling you what I took and why I took it, you tell me, what would you like for my Blood Angels and Eldar to field in order for BuFFo to show all the noobs how undeniably awesome the DE codex is?

Yeah, I'd like to know as well :)

New video bat rep is up...

2500 Wych Cult versus Tyranids - Game 15 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/2500-wych-cult-versus-tyranids.html)

newtoncain

11-28-2010, 10:06 PM

Thanks again for the report.:D

BuFFo

11-28-2010, 10:07 PM

Thanks again for the report.:D

You are most welcome!!!

DarkLink

11-28-2010, 11:23 PM

I was merely suggesting you make your 'test' results more interesting by reflecting a (for now hypothetical) change to the meta.

Why should he?

He's playing his own games for his own fun. He's being kind enough to post the battle reports so we get a taste of how a good DE player uses the new codex. You should be happy he's making the effort at all, rather than complaining about something that will take care of itself over time anyways, as his opponents get more and more used to playing DE.

Remember, the purpose of this test is to see how the various units perform, and how they can be countered. But in order to understand that, we need to understand how the units work. And we don't know that yet, so we need to run this test to find out in the first place. You're basically complaining that we don't have the answer to the problem that we are partway through the process of solving:rolleyes:.

arch_inquisitor

11-28-2010, 11:28 PM

So let me get this straight...

You want me to specifically tailor my list against DE when I play BuFFo just to satisfy your wholly misguided insistence that the DE are going to be making up a huge amount of tournament entries now?

While I tried to field two 2500 pt lists that would be competitive in a bigger tournament. My six predator list is meant to knock transports out of the sky with autocannon/lascannon preds and then dakka the pooor schmucks inside with a donkeygun/HB baal. Its a 1-2 punch that worked pretty damn well. If I had played my troops a bit more cautiously I might have won the first game. My most recent eldar list was pretty much custom made to deal with DE.

All pinning weapon firebase with a focus on light armor removal followed by a hammer (as hammer as the CE can do), two fast moving scoring units and a harassment unit that was put in there in lieu of a second counter assault unit because ... I was playing DE and str 6 is just the cat's tits against DE.

This list would NOT do very well against, say a 3 land raider SM list, or even a bug list. It'd get laughed off the board by a SW or IG list.

Instead of telling you what I took and why I took it, you tell me, what would you like for my Blood Angels and Eldar to field in order for BuFFo to show all the noobs how undeniably awesome the DE codex is?

Did I miss something?. Did you or are you playing all of the 45 games?. If so, then I may have unintentionally insulted you and I'm sorry for that.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you played two of the games of which you won one, so I fail to see why you seem to be taking this personally.

This thread specifically asks what we as viewers of the 45 game blog would like to see and you taking a defensive posture is muddying my point and defeating the purpose of asking the question in the first place.

Besides which you quote me as specifically not wanting to see strictly tailored lists as the results would be obvious. What I would like to see are standard list that are more of a challenge to the new DE toys. But that is somehow an insulting request, a question that has literally been thrown back at me for asking it.

BuFFo is the DE veteran, not me, he should know best what type of armies are a headache to face with DE, thats what I want to see, and thats what this thread asks. My personal theory's as to why I would like to see this should be irrelevant.

arch_inquisitor

11-28-2010, 11:29 PM

Why should he?

He's playing his own games for his own fun. He's being kind enough to post the battle reports so we get a taste of how a good DE player uses the new codex. You should be happy he's making the effort at all, rather than complaining about something that will take care of itself over time anyways, as his opponents get more and more used to playing DE.

Remember, the purpose of this test is to see how the various units perform, and how they can be countered. But in order to understand that, we need to understand how the units work. And we don't know that yet, so we need to run this test to find out in the first place. You're basically complaining that we don't have the answer to the problem that we are partway through the process of solving:rolleyes:.

Because he asked if we would like to see it, and if the purpose is to test how units perform then they should be tested. Other wise whats the point other than a practice in rolling over the units DE are used to rolling over.

I'm not trying to be insulting and I get he's going out of his way, but he presented something saying what do you think, and I gave a constructive critic and a suggestion (however vague), thats all.

BuFFo

11-28-2010, 11:53 PM

Because he asked if we would like to see it, and if the purpose is to test how units perform then they should be tested. Other wise whats the point other than a practice in rolling over the units DE are used to rolling over.

I am using all the units in the codex, one game after another, a little at a time.

Will I be able to cover all the various angles of unit X in 15 games? Nope. Can anyone in 200 games? Nope.

I am just trying my best to present fun games for people to read. I have already been asked by a person or two in my store to skew the results of a game, or to do something over to make it more interesting. That is not honest, and I will not skew anything.

If a game ends up me rolling someone on turn 2, and the game ends up being boring, so be it. If a game ends up with me taking a list and getting countered hard core by someone who took a list to roll my arse, than oh well!

I'm not trying to be insulting and I get he's going out of his way, but he presented something saying what do you think, and I gave a constructive critic and a suggestion (however vague), thats all.

Personally, I have no ill will to you. I welcome all suggestion, critiques AND criticisms. The only thing you can do to hurt my efforts is not being honest. Speak your mind, and always tell me what you think.

I already faced a WAAC Blood Angels list, a WAAC Eldar list, a WAAC Tyranids list and a WAAC Space Wolves list (which hasn't been posted yet). Thats pretty wacky! Huck huck huck!!

What is it you want to see exactly? Don't beat around the bush with fluffy wordage. Just tell me what you want to see, and I will do my best to do it for you.

Xas

11-29-2010, 05:27 AM

I personally would like to see a few games against an IG AV12 parking lot / leafblower list.

If you manage to win (not by sheer luck but tactics/army list) a game or two of them it would be even more informative for other de players.

Second wish would be a (preferably BA but generally everything goes) Dreadnought spam list (usually in droppods) as I've learned that even a single dread can be a real annoyance and dont even want to think of faceing 6 or more (BA) of those beasties.

Defenestratus

11-29-2010, 06:25 AM

Second wish would be a (preferably BA but generally everything goes) Dreadnought spam list (usually in droppods) as I've learned that even a single dread can be a real annoyance and dont even want to think of faceing 6 or more (BA) of those beasties.

I can do close to this. I can field 5 dreads, 3 in pods. I was looking for an excuse to get that chaplain dread from FW.

Not sure if the others at the store can do more.

Did I miss something?. Did you or are you playing all of the 45 games?. If so, then I may have unintentionally insulted you and I'm sorry for that.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you played two of the games of which you won one, so I fail to see why you seem to be taking this personally.

What I took personally is the fact that you didn't think a six predator list was representative of the current Meta game or that for some reason, you thought that a DE list would have an easy time with it. The game was a draw and it was the first time I had ever, EVER played against DE and their new codex after having read nought a page of the book. To suggest that such a list isn't "evolved" is pretty silly IMO.

BuFFo

11-29-2010, 10:56 AM

Second wish would be a (preferably BA but generally everything goes) Dreadnought spam list (usually in droppods) as I've learned that even a single dread can be a real annoyance and dont even want to think of faceing 6 or more (BA) of those beasties.

Here ya go.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-7/1271316/100_1781.JPG

Deploy your Warriors and Wyches out your entire deployment zone so that you negate Drop Pods from coming in your back lines. As the Drop pods come into play, just nuke the Dreadnaughts one at a time like at a shooting gallery.

????

Profit!

I won this game because he couldn't break into my lines, and I was just racking up those kill points.

Easy as Commorragh pie.

Or, let the DP army go first, and come off of reserves and just lance everything from afar.

These are not perfect strategies, but, they are strong against Drop Pod armies.

Sparfunk

11-29-2010, 06:08 PM

cheers for that post/pic BuFFo, i probably wouldnt have thought of that solution.

what are your opinions on the (4?) archetypes so far? (kabal/wych/homonculous/mixed arms) do you think one is stronger than the others, or that they are all quite matched?

im still plodding along with my all-kabalite army in the hopes that it will be competative without having to dip into the realms of wyches or wracks (though i cant wait to see GW wrack models).

DarkLink

11-29-2010, 06:35 PM

Heh, theres another reason to take the 20-warrior foot unit right there.

JxKxR

11-29-2010, 06:55 PM

Have you played against tau yet?

Porty1119

11-29-2010, 07:14 PM

just wondering, could you please put a report up with a few Voidravens/Razorwings? I'd like to see them in action if I'm going to go through with my plan of using DE codex IG spec ops/light air cav with F-14s as air support.

BuFFo

11-29-2010, 08:20 PM

Have you played against tau yet?

I have one game already, up on my blog for you to read, and another coming up soon.

just wondering, could you please put a report up with a few Voidravens/Razorwings? I'd like to see them in action if I'm going to go through with my plan of using DE codex IG spec ops/light air cav with F-14s as air support.

I have played a game with Triple Razorwings... I'll have that game up this week!

New game is up!!

1500 Dark Eldar versus Tyranids (Army Swap!) - Game 16 (http://awesomesaucestudio.blogspot.com/2010/11/1500-dark-eldar-versus-tyranids.html)

Unzuul the Lascivious

11-30-2010, 05:38 AM

Oh that spread out deployment formation is SO annoying to play against! An IG player did that in a Spearhead deployment game Vs my daemons - I had nowhere to deepstrike except in front of his guns...it is a cruel and disheartening tactic! So how does one counter it?

arch_inquisitor

11-30-2010, 08:13 AM

What is it you want to see exactly? Don't beat around the bush with fluffy wordage. Just tell me what you want to see, and I will do my best to do it for you.

Fair enough, but Xas has suggested some of the things I had in mind. Some of the things I'd like to know are probably larger than the scope of your project, my bad. Just having a nerd attack over the new book and toys is all. Because now I'm thinking, If you can't beat them often enough, join em.

What I took personally is the fact that you didn't think a six predator list was representative of the current Meta game or that for some reason, you thought that a DE list would have an easy time with it. The game was a draw and it was the first time I had ever, EVER played against DE and their new codex after having read nought a page of the book. To suggest that such a list isn't "evolved" is pretty silly IMO.

Ok, you represented two of all the lists, all of which are awesome by the way, I was speaking in a general sense. Some of those lists had only marginal anti DE elements but they were never meant to. The Dark Eldar were always awesome/annoying, but never popular.

As someone who's taken many a bruising to them, I know its go big or go home when fighting them.
So I'm sorry if I didn't separate you out, I was just looking to make a general suggestion.

Defenestratus

11-30-2010, 08:36 AM

Ok, you represented two of all the lists, all of which are awesome by the way, I was speaking in a general sense. Some of those lists had only marginal anti DE elements but they were never meant to. The Dark Eldar were always awesome/annoying, but never popular.

As someone who's taken many a bruising to them, I know its go big or go home when fighting them.
So I'm sorry if I didn't separate you out, I was just looking to make a general suggestion.

:)

The insult to my nerd honor has been placated! :P

Sparfunk

11-30-2010, 11:26 AM

BuFFo

11-30-2010, 12:31 PM

would arch_inquisitor be suggesting using WAAC dark eldar lists (ive taken it from BuFFo's wording that his lists arent chosen as such and are just a representation of the available choices) in a couple of games?

if so, what would a WAAC de list look like?

For specific unit-to-unit builds I honestly don't know yet.

Maybe after my 45 games I'll have a better perspective on this!

The Dark Eldar have so many good units, that I think that the Dark Eldar is probably the first codex to truly be balanced in such a way that there can be more than one of two builds that will be considered WAAC.

In my opinion, Dark Eldar ARE a WAAC army by deisgn. Always have. Dark Eldar need to pound the enemy early in the game to stand a chance of winning in the long run.

DarkLink

11-30-2010, 03:23 PM

To be fair, SW, BA and IG all have a very wide variety of solid, balanced list options. There are just one or two builds that stand above the rest, at least for IG and SW.

BuFFo

11-30-2010, 09:49 PM

To be fair, SW, BA and IG all have a very wide variety of solid, balanced list options. There are just one or two builds that stand above the rest, at least for IG and SW.

I disagree about those armies being balanced in the slightest. Those armies are an obvious indication of GW pushing units for sales over balance.

I am glad that Phil Kelly and the big wigs at GW decided that the ENTIRE DE codex needed to be good since it was virtually a new army. Every unit needed to be good for sales purposes, which baffles me about why the Mandrakes suck so hardcore, yet are the most expensive models in the army! No one unit stands above the rest. There are no cheese units, no deathstar units, none of that garbage.

I would easily argue that the Tyranied Codex is a far better example of balance than any of those armies you mentioned.

This is just my opinion, of course! This is just how I feel about these armies. I could be wrong, and I probably am, so don't hate me too hard!

Uncle Nutsy

11-30-2010, 10:08 PM

BuFFo

11-30-2010, 11:07 PM

I'm surprised and a little disappointed that both the reavers and incubi didn't have much use before they got blow'ed up. I really want to see those two units in action.

Since the reavers have an assault move, you could use them in a JSJ on steroids role. straight forward, blast whatever juicy target you pick to bits, and pull a hard left or right straight into cover.

Yeah, maybe I have been too single minded in my use of Reavers. I just TB them 36" to do Bladvane damage each time.

Thank you for keeping the Assault Move into consideration!

Ghoulio

11-30-2010, 11:30 PM

Yeah, maybe I have been too single minded in my use of Reavers. I just TB them 36" to do Bladvane damage each time.

Thank you for keeping the Assault Move into consideration!

I have tried using them in a "sniping" role with their shooting instead of turbo boosting (I use blasters on mine to insta kill T4 and to make sure they stay out of combat due to the 18" effective range) and they worked well. In one game against orks they killed off the remains of a Nob Squad, blew up a Trukk, shot at the squad that came out of it, breaking them and immobilized a Battle Wagon. Was that an "all star" game for them?...definitely, but with that extra assault move it was really fun/effective doing those quick little pop out attacks.

I was looking through some of your battle reps, specifically the last Eldar one with the 3 Talos, and I was wondering why in that instance you took heat lances? I was wondering if you have tried out the Haywire Blasters at all? It has almost 3 times the range and it would be great at suppressing vehicles so you in turn arent getting shot the turn after the Talos come out of the portal. It is how I was thinking of running them but havent had the chance to yet due to only owning about 1300pts of Dark Eldar lol. Keep up the good work though, been really enjoying seeing your battle reps :)

DarkLink

12-01-2010, 01:04 AM

I disagree about those armies being balanced in the slightest.

I would argue that most of the reason why they aren't balanced is due to those handful of builds each has that are very powerful. But if you were to eliminate a few units from each codex (or at least tweak their rules a bit), you would end up with codices much like the new 'nidz book, which is very balanced as you mentioned. Nidz just lack those handful of very potent builds the other armies have.

Except for leafblower. You'd have to rewrite the whole IG codex to balance that out.

BuFFo

12-01-2010, 01:24 AM

I was looking through some of your battle reps, specifically the last Eldar one with the 3 Talos, and I was wondering why in that instance you took heat lances?

Testing out Taloi with Heat Lances.

The idea was to pop out of a portal near the enemy, and blow them up. It would have worked, but my opponent took Wave Serpents. If it had been any other tank in the game, the Taloi would have won the game for me, since I kept losing a D6 against the Wave Serpents.

I was wondering if you have tried out the Haywire Blasters at all?

I have, and Haywire blaster, to me, seem like a weapon you just give up on. You don't really destroy tanks with it, you just throw your hands up in the air and decide to glance them instead. It is like you just give up on blowing tanks up and just settle for scraps.

I do not like Haywire Blasters, but, I have only used them a few times. I will be testing them more.

Taloi coming out of Portals with Heat Lances is VERY powerful indeed.

It has almost 3 times the range and it would be great at suppressing vehicles so you in turn arent getting shot the turn after the Talos come out of the portal.

Yeah, I know they HBs are for suppression. I need to factor that into my lists, as I can't just toss them in and forget about the rest of my build.

Thank you for taking an interest!

I would argue that most of the reason why they aren't balanced is due to those handful of builds each has that are very powerful. But if you were to eliminate a few units from each codex (or at least tweak their rules a bit), you would end up with codices much like the new 'nidz book, which is very balanced as you mentioned. Nidz just lack those handful of very potent builds the other armies have.

Except for leafblower. You'd have to rewrite the whole IG codex to balance that out.

I would agree with you wholeheartedly on all accounts.

The IG codex needs a rewrite by a competent author. Cruddance is just horrible. He took a crap all over the IG and Nid books. Maybe he was forced to nerf some units and make others powerful for sales reasons, but we'll never know.

Ghoulio

12-01-2010, 02:19 AM

The IG codex needs a rewrite by a competent author. Cruddance is just horrible. He took a crap all over the IG and Nid books. Maybe he was forced to nerf some units and make others powerful for sales reasons, but we'll never know.

I agree 100%. Cruddace is by far the worst codex writer GW has had in a long time. The idea that changes were made for sales reasons is pretty evident in the IG book, but in the Tyranid book it is just blatant. In my mind there can be no other reason other then this for the changes that were made. I am pretty sure he is writing the Grey Knight codex, so look for the exact same stuff. A horribly written book with only like 1/3 of the units being good (some being so blatantly good it almost doesnt make sense *cough* tervigon *cough*) and the rest being trash and all choices made with $$$ in mind.

I think that is one of the things I love about the new DE book so much, is that it was made with the idea of not alienating long time fans by keeping all the original stuff intact and brought it up to where the new stuff is. I would go as far to say that the DE book is my single fav army book GW has produced. Can't wait to get my army fully up and running.

konate

12-01-2010, 06:47 AM

*Ahem*

*I-N-H-A-L-E*

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAaawwwww....

*inhale, inhale, inhale*........

You asked for it. ;-)

Keep up the good work.

Drew da Destroya

12-01-2010, 11:08 AM

To further derail the discussion...

Yeah, both the IG and Bugz books are deeply flawed. I'm in no way arguing against that point... both could've used a lot more testing, and balancing. It seems like Cruddace had some cool ideas for both (Orders are really neat, honestly, and would've led to a more interesting infantry-based guard if Leafblowers didn't exist, and the Tervigon is a really cool idea, honestly), but somehow got derailed.

I have trouble swallowing the "These units were buffed for great $$$!" logic, though. Especially evident with the Tyranid release, they put out the Pyrovore and the Venomthrope... Two units that are pretty universally maligned. The Tervigon, which was immediately picked up as the sweetheart of the internet, still doesn't have a model. Nor does the Swarmlord, another perennial favorite. Even certain weapon options were buffed, and there aren't models for them... Boneswords for warriors being top of the list. Different codex, but the Thunderwolves are in the same boat... awesome rules, no models.

They were certainly intentionally made powerful, but I don't think it was solely to push plastic. Some strange and mysterious design philosophy for 5th, struggling to break through the walls of Mech?

On topic, the video batreps are cool, but much harder to watch at work. I need to move my desk, I think.

Sparfunk

12-01-2010, 03:56 PM

you have to remember that theyre trying to 'future proof' the army books theyre releasing now, by that i mean that instead of releasing a new book with all its new models that will need updating in two years, putting pressure on the designers, they can release at a slower rate if they give the book more units than they have models for thus giving them future 'new and exciting' releases, even if theyre units we've been familiar with for ages.

you can bet your sweet *** that the tervigon will be 35 quid, or more. the swarm lord will probably be 30 quid. those bone arms you mention? plastic ones in the swarm lord box, seperate sprue, might be available seperatly a few months after the swarmlord release, but not until enough people have bought a swarm lord just for the bone swords.

its fairly... sensible... from a business point of view i think. lets say, hypothetically speaking, that they release (arbitrary number here:) 12 codices for each game system, altenating wfb with 40k each month, and release ALL the models for each codex at that time. by the end of 24 months, those armies that went first are going to be feeling pretty stagnant.

BuFFo

12-01-2010, 04:19 PM

To further derail the discussion...

By all means, I enjoy reading people's thoughts on the codices and why they think the books are written how they are.

Feel free to continue talking about this if you wish :)

somerandomdude

12-01-2010, 05:05 PM

Especially evident with the Tyranid release, they put out the Pyrovore and the Venomthrope... Two units that are pretty universally maligned.

The only reason the Venomthrope is maligned at all (and I don't know if I'd even go that far) is because of its status as an Elite choice and the need to compete with Hive Guard (which was a new release, as were the plastic Gargoyles which are pretty common in competitive builds but for different reasons than their stats). A Venomthrope list (with spare Hive Guard, Tyrannofexes, and Harpies to make up the anti-mech) is actually quite good/annoying. If I were reviewing a list and saw a unit or two of them, I wouldn't criticise it, assuming there was enough anti-mech elsewhere. The Pyrovore though is just... ewww... They should've given them a flame belching ability so they could reach out and touch people at least. I always assumed they flipped around the Flamespurt and the Acid Spray (the Tyrannofex version that works like the Hellhound) by mistake. Doubt they'd be used any more, but at least they'd be interesting.

Of course, Mycetic Spores were pretty common early on before the FAQ, and they didn't release any models for those either.

DarkLink

12-01-2010, 05:10 PM

I think the 'nidz book is perfectly fine, excluding one or two units like the pyrovore (how did they let those rules get into the final book:confused:). It's balanced, and has lots of options and a wide variety of units. It mostly suffers from mech spam, really, but that's a problem with the overall meta rather than with the 'nidz codex itself.

What it doesn't have is an overpowered death star unit. That's the only thing that really separates 'nidz from the other new codices. BA, SW and IG are all, for the most part, varied and balanced, but have a few units or builds that are kinda broken. SW have TWcavalry and super cheap missile launchers, BA has stuff like Sanguinary priests and IG can fit too many Chimeras into a list for most other armies to deal with effectively.

konate

12-01-2010, 05:51 PM

the video batreps are cool, but much harder to watch at work. I need to move my desk, I think.

I agree. I recommend using a laser pointer, rather than moving the camera around as a pointing device. As much as I enjoy the video bat reps, they are much harder to study.

BuFFo

12-01-2010, 05:52 PM

I agree. I recommend using a laser pointer, rather than moving the camera around as a pointing device. As much as I enjoy the video bat reps, they are much harder to study.

I will see what I can do to make the video battle reports easier to study then :)

Defenestratus

12-01-2010, 05:58 PM

I agree. I recommend using a laser pointer, rather than moving the camera around as a pointing device. As much as I enjoy the video bat reps, they are much harder to study.

Moving the camera around is somewhat necessary, because if you zoomed out to see the whole board (something that I have difficulty with even at 6'6" tall) then you'd be so far away from the units that it would be hard to see what was actually going on. I agree that my camera work is jerky though and I'll strive to be better and perhaps do a broader table overview to start the video off so you can tell what the overall game looks like.

novatomato

12-01-2010, 06:38 PM

just thought I'd drop a line saying I've been enjoying these videos.
I agree though that there could be a bit more visual aspect to show more of the movement and such. I do enjoy having the camera move around as it allows for the viewer to see the entirety of the board but you could incorporate the laser pointer you can point out movement or important units/effects for the specific turn, (such as a unit being out of range of a generals leadership causing it to fail its break test).
I would not be disappointed if they stayed in the same format though.

novatomato

konate

12-01-2010, 07:32 PM

Moving the camera around is somewhat necessary, because if you zoomed out to see the whole board (something that I have difficulty with even at 6'6" tall) then you'd be so far away from the units that it would be hard to see what was actually going on. I agree that my camera work is jerky though and I'll strive to be better and perhaps do a broader table overview to start the video off so you can tell what the overall game looks like.

No problem with moving the camera. It's jerking the camera in a pointing manner then returning it to the original unit that's the problem. First, many people can get sick. Second, without a pointer, it can be hard to see which unit went where.

No worries. Not many people have that kind of experience (I don't, I just teach). I remember when no one who played these GW games could paint, either. Now look at us.

BuFFo

12-01-2010, 09:18 PM

No problem with moving the camera. It's jerking the camera in a pointing manner then returning it to the original unit that's the problem. First, many people can get sick. Second, without a pointer, it can be hard to see which unit went where.

No worries. Not many people have that kind of experience (I don't, I just teach). I remember when no one who played these GW games could paint, either. Now look at us.

Oh I see what you mean now.

I will keep the jerking to a minimum then! :eek: