Daemonhunters Wishlisting Thread

[Atrotos]

Hey everybody,

With the Dark Eldar finally on our doorstep I think it's time we started looking toward the next release, my personal favorite, the Inquisition (now Codex: Grey Knights). I'll share some of the things I'd like to see and you guys feel free to post the same. It's nice to know what other players want and expect.

For me I want an Airborne Storm Trooper army (which is what I play now through a mixture of IG and FW rules). I love the guys in black that kick down doors, grab the suspect, put a bag over his/her/its head and cart it off to be interrogated before anyone knows what's happened. I'm not interested in super humans, just plain bad ***** will do.

I would like:

IG Storm Troopers as Troops
- cheaper, maybe without the Special Operations rule
- WS 4 - no they're not as good as marines but they should be better than GEQ's
- Valkyries (not Vendettas) as dedicated Transports
- built in reserve bonuses

Strong Inquisitor character or good optios to build your own
- strong psykers please
- should be buffer characters but combat monster wouldn't be bad
- multiple slots, Elites and HQ as now

Good Daemonhost rules

Good Assassin rules

That's all.

[DarkLink]

I want four things, mainly;
1. FA GKs that have both Heroic Intervention and Gate of Infinity
2. Descent of Angels, but for teleporting rather than jump packs
3. Nightfight shrouding, 2+ saves, invulnerable, whatever, just make GKs less fragile and over priced
4. Squad based psychic powers as options. As in not mandatory, but with lots of cool options. Special rules similar to the Warlock psychic powers would be cool, too

[Mr.Pickelz]

1. keep the force weapon the way it is now (does not cause instant death, but kills you).

2. upgraded psyker abilites and more powers to choose from

3. i fully agree with you on inquisitor, let them be as customizable (or more) as a standard HQ choice would be.

4. keep IST cheap, and give the HQ inquistor lord a CHOICE on either, to take or not to take a retinue.

thats all i can think off top of my head... oh and keep the +2 str on NFW...but make them ALL Power weapons

maybe have it were normal pa gk's get +1str. Terminators/justicars get +2 and GM's get force weapon option.

[mysterex]

The ability to make a viable radical list. But given the new title of the codex that isn't likely to happen.

[Atrotos]

The ability to make a viable radical list. But given the new title of the codex that isn't likely to happen.

What would a radical list have in it besides a Daemonhost? Daemon weapon for the Inquisitor?

[Ahrimaneus]

Having the assassins do EXACTLY what they're supposed to do and do it well. Make them all viable choices in their own ways so that we don't just see the Callidus assasinorium present in every inquisitorial force. Have the Vindicaire ACTUALLY be able to kill sergeants, IC's, MC's, etc. but make him weak in CC. Have the Eversor be an absolute menace in CC but have him be a glass cannon that blows up when you kill him. Also, most importantly, have some sort of mechanism for denying their loss as a KP. Let's face it, a single model isn't very tough to take down (barring guys like the Sanguinor, Mephiston, etc.) and these guys should not be fire absorbing tanks.

Perhaps something along the lines of "Nominate an enemy IC or MC. If the assassin succeeds in eliminating said enemy, he does not count as a kill point in the mission." Or perhaps, in cases like the Callidus, some sort of "extraction" option so you can remove her from play if you succeed in your assassination, and have her not count as a KP. Seems fluffy, makes sense, and makes it a competitively viable choice.

Oh and having Daemonhosts be totally bonkers good if you pump enough points into them would be awesome. Think Cherubael from Eisenhorn. Yeah. Something tells me he might be able to lay the smackdown in some games and not be a T4 insta-gib pansy like the current daemonhosts.

[DarkLink]

4. keep IST cheap, and give the HQ inquistor lord a CHOICE on either, to take or not to take a retinue.


Yeah, I don't want IG Stormtroopers. They kinda suck. Their special missions rule is cool, but they pay too much for those AP3 lasguns.

[Atrotos]

Yeah, I don't want IG Stormtroopers. They kinda suck. Their special missions rule is cool, but they pay too much for those AP3 lasguns.

One small change can make a difference. GW has taken to fixing their mistakes if new codices give them the chance. A small special rule like Descent of Angels made Vanguard awesome and Devastators got a points decrease when in the BA codex.

[Mr.Pickelz]

if not IST's then something to represent a Inquistor's force, that is if the rumor (their taking allies out of the codex) is true, it would be nice to see the inquistor get some lovin from GW, instead of just being tossed aside and added as an after thought...

[Xas]

you can get the old stormtroopers even in the current IG dex. they are called veterans with plate armor :)

I myself would love the NEW stormtroopers as troops in the DH codex. the might need to get a combat mission that makes them better at holding objectives (maybe stealth or FNP or forcing the oponent to roll for ngihtsight to see them or whatever).

[DarkLink]

One small change can make a difference. GW has taken to fixing their mistakes if new codices give them the chance. A small special rule like Descent of Angels made Vanguard awesome and Devastators got a points decrease when in the BA codex.

Well, heck, I think their special mission rule is great. The real problem is their cost. They pay way too much for that AP 3. I would just drop that, replace it with a less overpriced shooting ability (maybe assault 2 18" lasguns?), and then drop their points to an appropriate cost. That way you would have a squad that still has decent shooting, can be very flexible in their deployment, and still act as an effective and cheap means of delivering special weapons.

[MarshalAdamar]

This should stir the pot

Grey Knights are NOT over priced!!

(Ducks head and watches fire works)

I keep thinking about the PA GK and they don't seem all that expensive for what they are.

Let’s cost one out.

A marine is 16pts, a storm bolter is 5pts if you buy if or a Sgt. or IC, that brings us to 21pts, so for what? 4 points you get WS 5 AND 2 attacks AND STR6!

They are even better than a whole unit of friggin veteran sgts!

You get a unit that hits on 3’s usually and wound on 2’s

They are way better than standard Marines!! So what’s with all the gnashing of teeth?

Seems to me what GK need are not Uber marines for super cheap.

Think of the stink when Grey hunters came out with BP + CCW AND they were one point cheaper.

The Sky fell, the rivers ran as blood and the moon was black as sack cloth.

And that was over +1 attack and -1 point cost.

So grey knights should bring about the rapture if they were any cheaper than they are now.

I submit that what the codex GK needs is not super cheap super marines but some cheaper troops like storm troopers and cheap chimeras etc to form the bulk of the army so that they are not handicapped with super low model count like they are now.

Grey knights are the super elite and so they should be expensive (all super elite units are) so the bulk of the GK army should not be GK’s

Sound weird but stay with me. Think about them like Delta force, you would not see a whole army of delta force. They are the spear tip of a larger army so to simulate that you make them kick much butt but you don’t have a whole army based around them in large numbers.

How cheap would you make Grey knights in power armor? They are better in every way than regular space marines (and they should be) but points is the great equalizer so if make them too cheap you make them broken.

Would it not be better to give them cheap IST’s with some cool rules, maybe make some special rules for the IST’s if you field an inquisitor?

I like the idea of heroic intervention for the teleporting GK that would be cool. And they would stay troops so you can take them and not take up other slots for other cools stuff.

I might make them more flexible, give the standard guys the option to deep strike without taking up a FA slot so they are always scoring, give them some other options in the squad, flamers, incinerators etc. I want them to be awesome but I would disappointed if all they did was say “Grey knights in power armor = 10 pts!” FTW!

That would be supremely lame.

I want grey knights to rock but not because they are 4 times as good as any comparable model for ½ the price.

Flame away.

[Ahrimaneus]

This should stir the pot
Yadda Yadda Yadda

I actually agree with you on this one and would take it a step further. I don't want cheap really good marines. We already have a couple of codices with those (SW, BA). Not to mention the fact that good old C:SM is still pretty damn good in its own right. I want REALLY badass marines that are extra survivable, for MORE points. If you play with an all GK force you are correct in that it is a delta force kind of deal, and should be a small, specialized, uber strike force. Give me a diesel dreadnought that can tango with MC's. Give me a Grand Master that will lay the smackdown on anybody shy of mephiston/sanguinor, and give them a run for their money as well. Give me TAGK and PAGK that are way more expensive than your standard marine and are WAY harder to kill than your standard marine. The problem right now is that grey knights get decimated by the same stuff that decimates all marines: Battle Cannons, Plasmaguns, High Init no armor save CC specialists, wound dumping, etc. They are the most elite Space Marine force in the galaxy, the best of the best of the best. They make your typical Ultramarine look like a pockmarked high school freshman in a pro NFL game. The rules should reflect this.

I want one squad of grey knights who will be borderline impossible to kill without some ridiculous firepower, backed up by IST's, or take 20 or so GK in PA/TA in storm ravens/teleporting and call it a day. Throw in the assassins for flavor, daemonhosts for some ridiculousness, and some really cool retinue/other squad ideas. Bang. Versatile, unique, competitive, and REALLY REALLY FUN codex!

[Atrotos]

1. What Ahrimaneus said. The "15 points for being a marine + 5 pts for a storm bolter + 5 pts for NFW etc." formula doesn't work because power armor still only works less than one third of the time. None of the Grey Knights special abilities help him out when you roll a '2'.



Well, heck, I think their special mission rule is great. The real problem is their cost. They pay way too much for that AP 3. I would just drop that, replace it with a less overpriced shooting ability (maybe assault 2 18" lasguns?), and then drop their points to an appropriate cost. That way you would have a squad that still has decent shooting, can be very flexible in their deployment, and still act as an effective and cheap means of delivering special weapons.

2. Str 3 Assault 2 is crap. Even Str 3 AP 3 is crap but you can't "just drop it" because then they're just expensive guardsmen. I know most pure GK players have no problem with this -they see no difference between the IG and the stormtroopers but consider this: If I say "I think the GK's stormbolter is great. The problem is their cost. They pay way too much for shrouding. I would just drop that." What the hell is a Grey Knight without shrouding? Its a power that goes a long way to shaping the GK identity - something that widens the gap between the GK and the average marine.

The current ST's share a major fault with the current GK. None of their supposedly awesome offensive abilities keep them alive longer than the average GEQ. If you ask me all ST's should have exactly what they do now, + reserve bonuses, + WS 4, + Stubborn, + more weapon options, + unique orders, + dedicated Valkyries all for 12 pts a model. Yes that's about 20 points a model worth of stuff but you can't use it all at once so it's not worth as much and it all goes down hill at the first sign of a heavy flamer.

GK players look down their noses at the ST's wanting them only as more bodies but what the GK is to a marine the ST is to an IG Veteran. They're the best of the best in their own category.

[Duke]

Plus, all your balancing stuff goes out the door when we find out that PAGK is now AAGK (artificer armour grey knights) and that all terms have 2+ 3++ standard. Laugh at it now, but everyone also laughed when I said deep striking land raiders and flying dreads for blood angels.

I could see a squad of 5 costing easily 150 pts before transports.

Duke

[DarkLink]

1. What Ahrimaneus said. The "15 points for being a marine + 5 pts for a storm bolter + 5 pts for NFW etc." formula doesn't work because power armor still only works less than one third of the time. None of the Grey Knights special abilities help him out when you roll a '2'.

Right. You can't just stick wargear options onto every single member of a squad and think that that is what a full unit should pay. Look at Howling Banshees. They're 16pts per model. A power weapon is 15pts. Are Howling Banshees 1pt per model, +15 for their Power Weapons? That sort of math just doesn't add up.

Now, go and compare GKs to Chaos Cult Troops. They're all similar in being Marines on steroids. And when you compare PAGK to them, you realize that GKs are indeed a bit too expensive compared to Berzerkers and Plague Marines. Really, they're on par with TKsons and Noise Marines, both of which are a bit overpriced as well.

Personally, I would put GKs in their current incarnation at worth about 22pts per model. Remember, they lack lots of things like grenades, and their True Grit is just a much worse version of the Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW that Chaos Marines get. Shrouding is almost completely worthless. All they really get is Storm Bolters, Str 6 and WS 5, which is nice but not worth 25pts per model.

Now, on the other hand GKTs are just about right. Just give them the option to get the new THSSs for a reasonable price, and they're golden.




2. Str 3 Assault 2 is crap. Even Str 3 AP 3 is crap but you can't "just drop it" because then they're just expensive guardsmen.

The current ST's share a major fault with the current GK. None of their supposedly awesome offensive abilities keep them alive longer than the average GEQ.

Meh, details. My point is the same as your second point; STs just pay too many points for their offensive abilities.

Plus, Storm Troopers have only had AP3 for, what, a year now? I mean, before the new IG 'dex hellguns were just slightly better lasguns. I wouldn't exactly say it was a really big part of their identity. Frankly I think that their special missions rule is much more characterful (and much more useful rules-wise).

[Mr.Pickelz]

what i meant by keeping IST is keep the entry, not the old price/rules, but have a dedicated troop slot that you can take with a inquisitor, i do apologize for not making that clear Dark-link. However i would like to see the inquisitor being able to keep a representation of his personal "Army", and not have to purely rely on GK support, being that everyone is saying allies is out, what is a inquisitor suppose to do for back up? rely purely on a space marine chapter? that is spread out far and thin... also, how would someone represent a radical inquisitor? if they keep daemon hosts, then no Grey knights for that army (assuming that rule still stands).

[DarkLink]

Oh, well, yeah, I agree with that. They should definitely keep them as troops and update their rules.

My only caveat is that I would rather not see the AP3 and 16pts per model. Too many points for a not-that-useful ability. But the rest of the new Storm Trooper rules are great, and they can just switch the AP3 out for something else that won't make them overpriced.

[Drew da Destroya]

Honestly, I'd like to see Arbites in the codex, instead of IST... just to get some more variety in the game. Maybe keep the ISTs in as a Fast Attack (deep striking, or dedicated Valkyrie choice) or Elite slot, since they are a "cool" unit.

[Duke]

I'm still in the artificer armor camp, so all this balancing with power armor may be pointless.
Duke

[Atrotos]

Honestly, I'd like to see Arbites in the codex, instead of IST... just to get some more variety in the game. Maybe keep the ISTs in as a Fast Attack (deep striking, or dedicated Valkyrie choice) or Elite slot, since they are a "cool" unit.

Why "instead of?" They could easily be the same entry with barring one or two different special rules and weapon options.


I'm still in the artificer armor camp, so all this balancing with power armor may be pointless.
Duke

I want to believe that all GK's will have Artificer (or "Anointed" or whatever) armor and some kind of invul. Sv. but where would that leave the Terminators? The entries would become too similar.

[DarkLink]

I want to believe that all GK's will have Artificer (or "Anointed" or whatever) armor and some kind of invul. Sv. but where would that leave the Terminators? The entries would become too similar.

We don't know anything about invulnerable saves, but we have had rumors of 2d6x3 shrouding. I'd take that over a measley 6++ any day. Or a 5++ for that matter. Being immune to virtually all shooting originating more than about 21" away is much better than a 5 or 6+ save.


If they go that route, then GKs will be all about local fire superiority. You'll have to get close to get to them, but as soon as you get close the GKs will absolutely hammer you. You'll have to be able to bring as much firepower to bear on the GKs before they're able to take your army apart piecemeal. An army like that is the Leafblower's worst nightmare.

[Mycroft Holmes]

All vehicles may take Homing Beacons for a small points cost
Any pure GK unit may Deep Strike (teleport)
Dreadnoughts may use Deep Strike (teleport)
GKT reduce scatter to avoid enemy models, but not impassible terrain/board edge
Remove the Orbital Bombardment from the Heavy Support and give it to Brother Captains (just like Chapter Master version)
Keep the interesting powers and allow them to affect all armies
Terminators should benefit from True Grit
Definitely keep Blessed Hull as a veh upgrade. Going to need it with Tyranid Zoanthropes, Dark Eldar and eventually Elder armies running around.

[DarkLink]

All vehicles may take Homing Beacons for a small points cost

Either this, or just have an army-wide build in homing beacon rule. You could say the GKs are able to home in on each other's psychic signature or something.




Any pure GK unit may Deep Strike (teleport)

Heck yea. Some mid-game teleportation would be awesome, too (gate of infinity).




Dreadnoughts may use Deep Strike (teleport)

Drop Pods are for suckers.






Keep the interesting powers and allow them to affect all armies

Right. No Chaos specific stuff, at least in terms of how the rules function. Or at most a few extra minor perks vs chaos, maybe some optional wargear. But we shouldn't have to spend points on abilities that are utterly worthless against 95% of the other armies in the game.



Terminators should benefit from True Grit

I actually liked the solution of just giving everyone an extra attack. That way you don't have any fancy rules to memorize, and it works out the same in the end.



Definitely keep Blessed Hull as a veh upgrade. Going to need it with Tyranid Zoanthropes, Dark Eldar and eventually Elder armies running around.
[/LIST]

Actually, that's the BT blessed hull. DH blessed hull doesn't do any of this.

[MarshalAdamar]

Right. You can't just stick war gear options onto every single member of a squad and think that that is what a full unit should pay.

Now, go and compare GKs to Chaos Cult Troops. They're all similar in being Marines on steroids. And when you compare PAGK to them, you realize that GKs are indeed a bit too expensive compared to Berserkers and Plague Marines. Really, they're on par with TKsons and Noise Marines, both of which are a bit overpriced as well.

Personally, I would put GKs in their current incarnation at worth about 22pts per model. Remember, they lack lots of things like grenades, and their True Grit is just a much worse version of the Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW that Chaos Marines get. Shrouding is almost completely worthless. All they really get is Storm Bolters, Str 6 and WS 5, which is nice but not worth 25pts per model.

Now, on the other hand GKTs are just about right. Just give them the option to get the new THSSs for a reasonable price, and they're golden.

I do think that you have to look at the cost of the war gear if you were going to figure out the cost effectiveness of a unit.

But the point is I do agree with you on the broad strokes that you have to look at more than just the cost of the war gear they’re carrying and look at the unit as a whole and how it balances into the game.

I do think they should get the Krak and Frag grenades if they're missing that’s for sure.

I guess there are two camps, more expensive with better stats and War gear

OR

Less expensive over all but keep the same stats and the 3+ save, maybe get some new skills.

I like the idea of artificer armor but I think squads of 10 STR 6 WS 5 Uber marines with a 2+ save would be too much.

How many sanguinary guards can you take? Maybe use those as a template?

I say keep the 3+ save and all the other stats as they are. Make them 22 points. That’s only a decrease in the squad cost of 30pts.

Give them the option of teleporting onto the battle field for troops and get rid of the FA choice all together.

Further give them the option to take jump packs for 5 pts a model and allow them to use the decent of angel’s rules.
Not making them cooler war gear wise so much but getting some special rules that allow them to get where they need to be reliably, less chance to get battle cannoned to death if you teleport in!

[Mycroft Holmes]

I do think they should get the Krak and Frag grenades if they're missing that’s for sure.


Frag and Defensive grenades. GK are already str6 so no reason to take, or use, Krak grenades.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I actually liked the solution of just giving everyone an extra attack. That way you don't have any fancy rules to memorize, and it works out the same in the end.

Normally, GKT have 3 attacks on the charge and 2 after that.
Giving them 3 attacks base would make them 4 on the charge and 3 after that.
Giving them True Grit would give them 3 every turn.

I don't really think they need a 4 attack charge when they're firing storm bolters and assaulting at normal int with str 6 power weapons.

[DarkLink]

I do think that you have to look at the cost of the war gear if you were going to figure out the cost effectiveness of a unit.

Yeah, I'm just saying that wargear costs scale differently for units than for ICs/Sergeants. You can't compare GKs with Storm Bolters to a SM Sergeant Storm Bolter upgrade, you have to compare it to some other unit with storm bolters, like Terminators.

And ignore Sternguard Stormbolters. That upgrade is idiotic. Why would they make you pay 5pts for a stormbolter only to lose your best ability (Special ammo).



But the point is I do agree with you on the broad strokes that you have to look at more than just the cost of the war gear they’re carrying and look at the unit as a whole and how it balances into the game.

Right. I would compare GKs most closely to CSM Cult Troops, as they're fairly similar in being super-space Marines. I think the comparison puts PAGKs at about 21, maaaybe 22 pts per model under their current rules.



I do think they should get the Krak and Frag grenades if they're missing that’s for sure.

Well, offensive grenades anyways. And defensive grenades would be sweet, too. They don't specifically need frag/krak, because they're already str 6 so they can hurt vehicles anyways.

I like the idea of taking the Rites of Exorcism and turning it into this: "The Grey Knight's psychic presence is painful to their enemies, distracting their foes at critical moments. Grey Knights count as being equipped with offensive and defensive grenades."



I guess there are two camps, more expensive with better stats and War gear

OR

Less expensive over all but keep the same stats and the 3+ save, maybe get some new skills.

I like the idea of artificer armor but I think squads of 10 STR 6 WS 5 Uber marines with a 2+ save would be too much.

How many sanguinary guards can you take? Maybe use those as a template?

I think they should start with the current stats, at about 21pts per model, and add stuff to get to 25-30pts per model. Give them 2+ saves, 2d6x3 Shrouding, offensive and defensive grenades, and the ability to deepstrike and you're about 25 points, maybe a little more. I think that right there would be a solid baseline to start with.

Then from there, just play around with points and extra special rules, and see how they interact with the other units in the army. Then you'll end up with a powerful but balanced unit.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you have such a small army, each individual model has to be crazy good to support the army as a whole. So Grey Knights might end up seeming underpriced and overpowered if you look at them individually, but then you realize there's only going to be 20 models in a 1500 point army and you realize that it all balances out.



I say keep the 3+ save and all the other stats as they are. Make them 22 points. That’s only a decrease in the squad cost of 30pts.

As I mentioned above, I would give them 2+ saves, 2d6x3 Shrouding, offensive and defensive grenades, and the ability to deepstrike. I think that would put them up to their current cost of 25pts per model, roughly.

Then playtest and see how that works out.



Give them the option of teleporting onto the battle field for troops and get rid of the FA choice all together.

Well, give every single model deepstrike, yes. However, the FA choice is an opportunity for a new unit. Think GKs with both Gate of Infinity and Heroic Intervention. That would be a totally awesome unit to play, especially with 2d6x3 shrouding. Very expensive, I'm sure, but it would feel perfect for GK Teleport Assault Squads.



Further give them the option to take jump packs for 5 pts a model and allow them to use the decent of angel’s rules.
Not making them cooler war gear wise so much but getting some special rules that allow them to get where they need to be reliably, less chance to get battle cannoned to death if you teleport in!

I wouldn't bother with jump packs. Just give them "deportation of angels" or something. Maybe only for Terminators and FAGKs, or whatever works for balance.



I don't really think they need a 4 attack charge when they're firing storm bolters and assaulting at normal int with str 6 power weapons.

It would work out more or less the same as if they gave GKTs True Grit. My point was that they should simply replace True Grit with +1 A, as that means one less rule to remember. Whether or not GKTs get it is a different matter.