Hydra Initiative test

[aetios]

This question came up in my group recently and I've heard different answers from multiple sources, so I wanted to get the opinion of the BoLS group.

If a Dark Elf Hydra is hit by a template that forces the unit to take an initiative test or be wiped out (Pit of Shades, Skaven bomb [can't remember the exact name of it], etc.), should the initiative test be taken on the Hydra's initiative or the Beastmasters?

My opinion is that it should go off of the Beastmasters as they are controlling the creature and if they can see it coming they would make the beast move out of the way. I have contacted GW customer service 3 times, and all three customer service reps agreed. I was outnumbered by my group however so we've been going off of the Hydra's initiative instead and I have promptly lost my hydra every game since. What is your opinion? Thanks for your thoughts on the matter!

[Nungunz]

Page 10 of the Rulebook:

"Where a model (or unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic.......test is always taken against the highest of the values."

If there are any beastmasters in the unit left, the whole unit has Initiative 5 as a whole.

The problem is that Pit of Shades affects individual models, not the unit. So in that case, you use the individual model's (2 for Hydra, 5 for beastmasters) initiative.

However something like Net of Amyntok affects a unit so the highest initiative is use.


The answer to your question is: It depends on the spell or ability. You need to see if a unit is affected or if individual models are affected.

[aetios]

Thanks for the help. One question off of that then (and I think this is where my questioning of which initiative to use really comes into play) - for the Dark Elves Hydra, unlike other monsters and handlers rules, it says that hits can never be allocated on the beastmasters, they must always be taken on the hydra. So no matter what, technically it always hits the hydra.

So on those templates that affect the model, not the unit, would it be just one test against the hydra's Initiative, or would it be a test vs. each initiative and then lose the unit anyway if I fail a beastmaster check since the hydra takes the hit?

[Nungunz]

Not 100% sure on that.

Page 73 of the rulebook under monsters and handlers:

"...handlers aren't really a combat unit so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit..."

and

"...In addition the handlers cannot be charged, attacked, or otherwise affected separately from their monster..."


Combine that with the Beastmasters rule from the FAQ and we find that the handlers can never be affected (not even in close combat)

Looks like only the hydra would have to pass the test. In addition the handlers can never be attacked in any way and are completely ignored in close combat.

Granted as far as I know, this only applies to the DE Hydra. Other monsters and handlers follow the normal rules for randomizing unsaved wounds.

This pretty much guarantees that the hydra will never have to roll on the monster reaction chart and essentially gives it an extra 4 attacks from the beastmasters.