Doom of Malantai - How do I kill this thing?

[Rissan4ever]

The Doom of Malantai severely annoys me. It's T4, 3++ with 10 Wounds after it eats a squad or two. My Imperial Guard have a major problem dealing with this thing. What are good tactics for killing it?

[PalinMoonstride]

Shoot it with three S8 weapons?

[kevinmcd28]

The Doom of Malantai severely annoys me. It's T4, 3++ with 10 Wounds after it eats a squad or two. My Imperial Guard have a major problem dealing with this thing. What are good tactics for killing it?

Missile launchers to the face, a lot of them.....They fail one missile launcher save and they go bye bye...not matter how many wounds (no eternal warrior I believe)

[Squirrel_Fish]

No, it doesn't have eternal warrior. It's frustrating to kill, but if you treat it with the same priority as a Monstrous creature and point lascannons, missiles or melta if you're really desperate, it'll keel over.

[BuFFo]

Lascannons, Meltas and Missile Launchers.

I think IG can field one or two of those weapons....

[Skarekrow07]

No, it doesn't have eternal warrior. It's frustrating to kill, but if you treat it with the same priority as a Monstrous creature and point lascannons, missiles or melta if you're really desperate, it'll keel over.

you should be happy i stopped using him squirrel :D

[imperialsavant]

No, it doesn't have eternal warrior. It's frustrating to kill, but if you treat it with the same priority as a Monstrous creature and point lascannons, missiles or melta if you're really desperate, it'll keel over.

:) Yes He (it?) really hates Lascannons & Krak Missiles!;)

[Tynskel]

All ya need, in crummy statistics, is 3 Str8+ wounds, which is ~3.6 hits, which is about 7.2 shots (in the BS3 world). So, if you fire roughly 8 Str 8 Shots at Doom in one round, you should kill it.

Roughly.

[Nungunz]

Meltaguns, Battlecannons, Demolisher Cannons, Lascannons, Missiles, Democharges, Manticore Missiles, Basilisks.

It's honestly very easy to kill. The Doom got nerfed pretty hard after the FAQ. It's a one-trick pony that lives for 1 turn before dying. Not very competitive at all.

[BuFFo]

Meltaguns, Battlecannons, Demolisher Cannons, Lascannons, Missiles, Democharges, Manticore Missiles, Basilisks.

It's honestly very easy to kill. The Doom got nerfed pretty hard after the FAQ. It's a one-trick pony that lives for 1 turn before dying. Not very competitive at all.

How did the FAQ nerf the Doom that makes it easier to kill than already listed in the tyrnaid codex?

[Tynskel]

you can no longer kill the 4 Meltagun command squad that's inside of the Chimera.

[AbusePuppy]

Doom is pretty poor unless you deploy like a moron (i.e. all clumped together.) You get cover saves against its aura, it doesn't work on guys in vehicles at all, etc.

The most likely result is that you will lose 1-3 wounds as he Leeches a single squad (and you pass some cover saves) and then you move 6.1" away on your turn so he can't Leech again and shoot him to death, either with S8+ guns or just regular whatevers, because T4 W6 is not actually that tough.

[BuFFo]

you can no longer kill the 4 Meltagun command squad that's inside of the Chimera.

That doesn't answer my question.

[DrBored]

That doesn't answer my question.

That's the nerf though. It's not that it was made easier to kill, it's that it's power was nerfed and therefore isn't as competitive, and so it's less of a problem and therefore seen less in armies.

[gannam]

I used the doom successfully in many tournaments. Now that I have retired my nid army (thanks GW for the nerfs) I can give advice on counters to the doom.

The standard tactic that most folks used against me was to shoot it with lascannons, missle launchers, and other assorted units, or charge it with a powerfist.

These tactics will fail more often then succeed for simple fact that the unit has a 3+ invun. this means that 60% of the time, I was making my saves and negating a shot from a big gun that "should" have been used to take out something more important like the hive tyrant, tervigon, or other monstrous creature hoofing it across the board.

The other approach involving assaulting it with insta-kill weapons is also a flawed approach as all its going to do it suck up wounds from the unit that assaults it and then have a 60% chance to save against your powerfist attacks. Even if you kill it, it wins because it gets its points back.

The very best tactic against this unit is to run from it or stay meched up. I know thats not what you wanted to hear, but honestly, the doom should be an extremely low prority target for the opposing army.

[bb-dawg]

Just continue to hit it with LC's or any other S8 weapon. Your simply playing the dice game of trying to get it to roll low. It only needs to fail once against S8.

[miggles]

How did the FAQ nerf the Doom that makes it easier to kill than already listed in the tyrnaid codex?


The faq nerfed the amount of damage he could do before he is killed. he was always easy to kill if you had enough str 8 weapons. the faq nerfed him being able to effect units mounted in transports. If you played that he did effect units in transports then he was very points effective at that time.

[slobulous]

These tactics will fail more often then succeed for simple fact that the unit has a 3+ invun. this means that 60% of the time, I was making my saves and negating a shot from a big gun that "should" have been used to take out something more important like the hive tyrant, tervigon, or other monstrous creature hoofing it across the board.

The other approach involving assaulting it with insta-kill weapons is also a flawed approach as all its going to do it suck up wounds from the unit that assaults it and then have a 60% chance to save against your powerfist attacks. Even if you kill it, it wins because it gets its points back.

The very best tactic against this unit is to run from it or stay meched up. I know thats not what you wanted to hear, but honestly, the doom should be an extremely low prority target for the opposing army.

Most of this is wrong. Trying to instakill it is NOT a flawed approach, quite the opposite really. It's the best way to get rid of it. You are making it seem like a 3+ invul is hard to get through. Hitting it with a few STR 8 weapons is all it takes. I can point a single Vendetta at it for a single shooting phase and it will usually be dead. Ignoring it or running from it is the worst thing you could do. While the Doom's aura was nerfed, its shooting ability was not. This thing still puts out a potentially STR 10 large blast with AP 1. That is not a low priority target by any stretch of the term.

[Mal]

Just zap it with some long range firepower, with the mobality inherent in most armies, you should still get a turn or 2 with most of your shooty units being able to open up into the main swarm, no great loss there.

Its kinda like the eldar avatar (well not really, but you get what I mean). You can either take it out from a range or let it get close... the first method will usually mean you have to pass up a single alternate target (depending on your opponents list this could be bad... or not bad), however if you let it get close first then you risk taking casualties from it.

Its just a matter of adjusting your target prioity.

[Flammenwerfer13]

drive by meltagun or 3 from a vet squad? My favorite, 3 meltaguns and a missle launchers. thats 4 str8 wounds he CAN"T fail or "poof"

[Bean]

drive by meltagun or 3 from a vet squad? My favorite, 3 meltaguns and a missle launchers. thats 4 str8 wounds he CAN"T fail or "poof"

Actually, you're far more likely to get two wounds which will cause ID than you are to get four--almost four times as likely, in fact. The distribution is actually:

0 wounds: 3.9% of the time
1 wound: 19.5%
2 wounds: 36.6%
3 wounds: 30.5%
4 wounds: 9.5%

This is presuming that all of these shots are at BS:4, which I believe is correct for veterans. The probability of this set of shots actually killing the Doom is 55.9%, which is pretty reasonable, but certainly not a sure-fire thing.

This does represent the correct way to go about killing the Doom, though: keep away from it, keep hitting it with shots that will ID it, and wait for it to fail a save.

[Mal]

Actually I make that a 74% (22/29) chance of killing it with 4 Bs4 S8 hits... and thats giving it a 3+ save... is its save inv? if its not then the odds shoot up to 222% (2/2/9).

Doing a chart to show the likely hood of getting how many potential ID shots doesn't actually give you the odds of killing it... it just gives you the odds of scoring x amount of ID shots.

[Bean]

Actually I make that a 74% (22/29) chance of killing it with 4 Bs4 S8 hits... and thats giving it a 3+ save... is its save inv? if its not then the odds shoot up to 222% (2/2/9).

Doing a chart to show the likely hood of getting how many potential ID shots doesn't actually give you the odds of killing it... it just gives you the odds of scoring x amount of ID shots.

The second part is correct--the chart doesn't show the odds of killing it, it gives you the probability of scoring exactly each possible number of wounds (before saves).

The first part is wrong, however. The average number of dead Dooms is 0.74(07...) and that's the number you appear to have found. That is not the same as the probability of killing the Doom. We can see this by looking at your follow-up (the Doom's save is invulnerable, by the way): no probability is 222%. All probabilities are between 0 and 1, with 0 being impossible and 1 being guaranteed. Expressed as a percent, that's 0% to 100%. Given that your method produces an impossible result, it is obviously wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect that what you've done is find the probability of one shot killing the Doom (2/3*5/6*1/3) and multiplying it by the number of shots (4). That gives you the average number of kills--not the probability of getting a kill. The probability of getting a kill with four shots can be found by taking that probability of getting a kill with one shot and plugging it into the following formula for p.

1-(1-p)^4

1-(1-2/3*5/6*1/3)^4 is 0.559, or 55.9%. Not 74%.

Your error is understandable (the failure of wargamers to understand basic probability math is staggering--even I didn't understand it when I started wargaming) but it is an error none-the-less.

[gannam]

Most of this is wrong. Trying to instakill it is NOT a flawed approach, quite the opposite really. It's the best way to get rid of it. You are making it seem like a 3+ invul is hard to get through. Hitting it with a few STR 8 weapons is all it takes. I can point a single Vendetta at it for a single shooting phase and it will usually be dead. Ignoring it or running from it is the worst thing you could do. While the Doom's aura was nerfed, its shooting ability was not. This thing still puts out a potentially STR 10 large blast with AP 1. That is not a low priority target by any stretch of the term.

All I can say to that, is fine, roll the dice but if you fail, you have just given my MC's another turn to get across the board. If you stay in your metal box and ignore it, its a str 4 weapon.

I would pour the lascannons into something that deserves it. I beat many opponents that had the doom as the number 1 target priority.

[Tynskel]

The second part is correct--the chart doesn't show the odds of killing it, it gives you the probability of scoring exactly each possible number of wounds (before saves).

The first part is wrong, however. The average number of dead Dooms is 0.74(07...) and that's the number you appear to have found. That is not the same as the probability of killing the Doom. We can see this by looking at your follow-up (the Doom's save is invulnerable, by the way): no probability is 222%. All probabilities are between 0 and 1, with 0 being impossible and 1 being guaranteed. Expressed as a percent, that's 0% to 100%. Given that your method produces an impossible result, it is obviously wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect that what you've done is find the probability of one shot killing the Doom (2/3*5/6*1/3) and multiplying it by the number of shots (4). That gives you the average number of kills--not the probability of getting a kill. The probability of getting a kill with four shots can be found by taking that probability of getting a kill with one shot and plugging it into the following formula for p.

1-(1-p)^4

1-(1-2/3*5/6*1/3)^4 is 0.559, or 55.9%. Not 74%.

Your error is understandable (the failure of wargamers to understand basic probability math is staggering--even I didn't understand it when I started wargaming) but it is an error none-the-less.

Hah!

I was never taught that one in any of my classes. I will put that one in my back pocket for the future.

:)

[Bean]

Tynskel:

Thanks! If you're interested in that sort of thing, and you want to read the long version, I've published it here (http://onwargaming.blogspot.com/2010/10/brief-description-of-probability-and.html).

[Vaddok Sek]

I've never really had any trouble killing it, mostly because I was sure to do it quickly before the guy could get any of his other stuff to work. I have killed the thing by issuing the "bring it down" order to two squads each with plasma gun and heavy bolters. Part of the trick is doing it before he can get to your guys and the fact that you may have to decide which unit or units will be acting as speed bumps to his genestealers and guants, though taking a vet squad with the foward sentries doctrine to carry out this task can actually turn thier assault on its head.

[Tynskel]

Tynskel:

Thanks! If you're interested in that sort of thing, and you want to read the long version, I've published it here (http://onwargaming.blogspot.com/2010/10/brief-description-of-probability-and.html).

Where did ya get the formula?
Also, r u at Purdue?

[Bean]

Where did ya get the formula?
Also, r u at Purdue?

From a guy who posts on Librarium as Onlainari. Also, I did go to Purdue, yes. Do you?

[Tynskel]

From a guy who posts on Librarium as Onlainari. Also, I did go to Purdue, yes. Do you?

Just started grad school. Which is a funny way of saying: I have not played a game in 5 months.

[Bean]

Just started grad school. Which is a funny way of saying: I have not played a game in 5 months.

Cool, and I sympathize. I haven't gotten any 40k in in months, either. Work =/.

Are you living in West Lafayette?

[Tynskel]

Yup! Being from California, I made the Stupid Stupid mistake of living in the Purdue Village.

[Bean]

Is it really that bad? I've not heard good things, but I don't think I've known anyone who lived there.

[Tynskel]

I have my own place. Good. However, it is $720 a month. In California, that's a steal. Out here, I have been finding out that I am paying almost double what most people pay, for the equivalent space and amenities. Also, previous campus housing that I have been in on other campuses are much better in quality.

Essentially, that's a whole bunch of warhammer and beer that I could be consuming instead of giving to the University. Just $100 cheaper could get me 10 terminators a month!

Moving out in June!

[Bean]

Ah, yeah. That is pretty pricy. I have a house in Lafayette, and my mortgage is less than half that. It's small, but still. over 700 is a lot, around here.

[Cavscout]

Treat it like a terminator. Throw alot of low strength shots at it. With Zoanthropes, and Doom, I'm more worried about rapid fire than I am a couple of las cannons.