Optimistic Views on Dark Eldar

[Old_Paladin]

There is a little disappotment from long standing Dark Eldar players.
But, now that we are more solid about the rules and point costs, this thread is about all the good things you're planing with the Dark Kin.
So talk about the units you really like or the new tactics you're going to try out.

For me, I think the underlooked gem could be the elite Bloodbrides and Truebornes.
At first, when I heard that there was going to be units made of nothing but unit-leader type models, I thought "well, that'll be too costly and won't do much with a extra attack (especially for the warriors)."
But, I think I'm wrong.

Bloodbrides have such potential. They are actually cheap, the extra attack is nice and the ability to take an extra wych weapon in the squad is another bonus. Depending on which drug you get, they could be a better choice then Incubi.

The trueborne themselves don't appear very good. They are more expensive warriors (who also seem overcosted), and an extra attack on a unit that shouldn't be put into combat. Where I changed my mind is the number of special weapons they get. 4 blasters is awesome. Thats 4 range 18", str:8, AP:2, assault 1 lance shots. LandRaiders? Gone. Leman Russ? Gone. Also good at hurting anything with high toughness, 2+ armour and/or FNP.
It's almost like the old warrior sniper team; shorter range but mobile.

[BuFFo]

In the current codex, you can make either a Kabal or Wych Cult standard. You had to work for it, but you can also theme out a fluffy Haemonculi Coven as well.

The new Codex does much more... You got the Kabal, Cult, Coven AND Hellion army themes!! Thats four powerful themed lists you can make. This is my wet dream come true!

That right there is what makes the Dark Eldar army a fluffy, powerful and fun army to own. Thats like having four different armies rolled up into ones. Not many armies can claim such a thing. Orks used to when they had the various Ork Klans, but we all know how that turned out, and Chaos has multiple army themes as well, but with their fluff torn out and spat on, all we see are the power gaming lists.

I am personally going to make a 1500 point Kabal, Coven, Cult and Hellion army.

[Grailkeeper]

Slightly off topic- Buffo Are you changing your avatar once every dark eldar codex comes out?

[Master Bryss]

Splinter rifles are actually good.

[UltramarineFan]

Have to admit that I'm not too bothered about DE at the moment but if they release models for Scourges then I am so in. After seeing the new art then I knew I would have to get some if models came out and when I say some I mean many. :)

[JonnyRoxtar]

Ive been waiting for a long time for this army. GW have delivered an army so beautiful I dont care about it being a bit late. I also dont care about the rules. I will be fielding this army like every other army I have played, ie fielding the units that I think look awesome. Fortunately this time that means all of the units Ive seen so far are in with a shout.

Ruleswise I will adapt and improvise and make stuff work. I can see this army being my go to army for a long long time.

Dark Eldar, when you absolutely positively need to kill every mother f&$@%r on the battlefield, Accept no substitute.

[Xas]

4 common lances arent going to instantly evaporate a landraider or leman russ. actually it isnt even enough to realiably get a full penetration hit on each salvo (hit on 3+, pen on 5+) and then its not even ap1 so hurting the vehicle isnt granted in any way.

on monsters or characters it is good though.

can you maybe get more than one special melee weapon as well (like chaos choosen) or instead? cause then the attack in the stats would mean something!

[isotope99]

I think light armour will have a fair bit of survivability with cover saves. I am planning on using a reaver screen to give my vehicles cover saves and if I can turbo-boost them on from reserves so they get a cover save too, so much the better.

I like that some of the special characters are going to change force organisation or tactics:

Urien - allows haemonculii troops
Baron - allows hellion troops
Duke - Allows much deep striking

The Wyches look pretty good in the troops section but does anyone know if they are going to have the tyranid problem of assaulting into cover with no grenades? Their main advantage is that extra initiative to thin out the return attacks. If they lose that = :(

I like that we are getting new aerial vehicles and am planning to convert a FW phoenix into the new void raven (very little work needed except for a bit of weapon replacement. Flyers must feature more prominently next edition of 40k.

I like that it is possible to defy expectations and create a fairly tough force with lots of FNP, incubi, Talos, beasts and haemonculii constructs.

I don't like:


That I have to wait until November for my pre-order.

Empty tables with nothing to hide behind.

Space Wolf long fangs that are able to hit two transports a turn.:mad:

[Old_Paladin]

4 common lances arent going to instantly evaporate a landraider or leman russ. actually it isnt even enough to realiably get a full penetration hit on each salvo (hit on 3+, pen on 5+) and then its not even ap1 so hurting the vehicle isnt granted in any way.

4 blasters have an 88.89% chance of a pen, and a 29.63% of an outright kill, per savlo.
Those are nice odds actually; and awesome with a 24" threat zone. And the odds of getting immoblized and weapon destroyed (crippling most vehicles), from the combo of glances and pens, are much higher.


@Isotope:
I'm pretty sure that wyches get plasma grenades; so attacks at init.

[Lockark]

I'm looking foreword the the beast master packs. It will give me a excuse to by some of the awesome monster mini's Reaper makes and use them in my army.

[Tirion]

DE players have to be optimistic even if it is misplaced. Cause who knows it ight be another 12 years till the get an update!

[Renegade]

Well, depended on how big the transports are, they may get the blessed opportunity to fall to my conversion skills and be made in to 'counts as' Chimeras.

[Schnitzel]

Well, depended on how big the transports are, they may get the blessed opportunity to fall to my conversion skills and be made in to 'counts as' Chimeras.

Yes, because ever power gamer deserves the chance to take beautiful models and pervert them for their personal causes. Congrats mate.

[Drew da Destroya]

The more I hear about them, the more I'm excited for Scourge. One of the crappiest, most overpriced units in the old codex is gonna become pretty deadly.

Jump troops with assault 3 weapons standard, and between 2-4 good assault weapons... Heat Lances, Blasters, or Splinter Cannons... they can pump out a lot of really mobile firepower.

Incubi with Fleet is gonna be fun to play with.

[sorienor]

Yes, because ever power gamer deserves the chance to take beautiful models and pervert them for their personal causes. Congrats mate.

Sorry but if someone pays the money for plastic, they can do whatever the f**&^ they want to with it.

[BuFFo]

Slightly off topic- Buffo Are you changing your avatar once every dark eldar codex comes out?

lol...

Spot on bro, spot on... :P

[Mr.Pickelz]

as someone who doesn't know much on DE, what's the fluff on the succubai? (hq choice) and is she represented, stat/point cost wise, well? cause i was thinking lelith or a succubai leading a group of wytches in a raider for kill team battles.

[Mal]

The succubus (not i for singular in GW's word of wych-y leaders) is just a unit upgrade, the HQ choice is either a Wych Arcite or a Wych Dracite.

Both of these (and Lelith) can take a retinue of wyches who can take a dedicated raider transport...
Thats in the old rules, in the new I believe they can still take a unit of wyches (not sure if it'll be the troop or elite, hopefully elite) who do still have access to raider transports... and even if they can't... just chuck them in the unit anyway, its 5th edition after all.

[Renegade]

Yes, because ever power gamer deserves the chance to take beautiful models and pervert them for their personal causes. Congrats mate.

:confused: How is converting power gaming? Its suppose to be part of the hobby!:p

[OXRS]

The succubus (not i for singular in GW's word of wych-y leaders) is just a unit upgrade, the HQ choice is either a Wych Arcite or a Wych Dracite.

Succubus IS the singular. Succubi is plural. Why rag on them for the things they don't screw up?


In regards to the topic, I'm optimistic for an army that will feel the same, but play differently. With small arms being actually effective, and a whole plethora of build options, it will be fun to explore how well things really work again. I know it's a general optimism, but I don't mind.

[Quaade]

I really don't understand how people can be disappointed with -anything- in the new codex. There's not a single bad or subpar unit in the book. Everything can, and must, be used together to create a sum that's greater than it's parts.

Sure, we've lost a few rules on some units, but we have gained so much more overall.

[BuFFo]

I really don't understand how people can be disappointed with -anything- in the new codex. There's not a single bad or subpar unit in the book. Everything can, and must, be used together to create a sum that's greater than it's parts.

Sure, we've lost a few rules on some units, but we have gained so much more overall.

Quite a few units have gotten hit by the nerf bat, whether you can see it or not.

[Porty1119]

I think light armour will have a fair bit of survivability with cover saves. I am planning on using a reaver screen to give my vehicles cover saves and if I can turbo-boost them on from reserves so they get a cover save too, so much the better.

I like that some of the special characters are going to change force organisation or tactics:

Urien - allows haemonculii troops
Baron - allows hellion troops
Duke - Allows much deep striking

The Wyches look pretty good in the troops section but does anyone know if they are going to have the tyranid problem of assaulting into cover with no grenades? Their main advantage is that extra initiative to thin out the return attacks. If they lose that = :(

I like that we are getting new aerial vehicles and am planning to convert a FW phoenix into the new void raven (very little work needed except for a bit of weapon replacement. Flyers must feature more prominently next edition of 40k.

I like that it is possible to defy expectations and create a fairly tough force with lots of FNP, incubi, Talos, beasts and haemonculii constructs.

I don't like:


That I have to wait until November for my pre-order.

Empty tables with nothing to hide behind.

Space Wolf long fangs that are able to hit two transports a turn.:mad:


Flyers more prominently in 40k? My friend's gonna have a heart attack....in ANY other ruleset I write with flyers, he goes crazy. He refuses to take them because they're 'broken' and I then wipe the floor with him through total air superiority.

[DrLove42]

Flyers more prominently in 40k? My friend's gonna have a heart attack....in ANY other ruleset I write with flyers, he goes crazy. He refuses to take them because they're 'broken' and I then wipe the floor with him through total air superiority.

Know the feeling. When Valks came out in plastic I doubled my airforce to cope with them.

If your not an Eldar pilot you don't know how lucky you are...all eldar planes are pointed extra for the 4+ cover save they got....which now in 5th ed everyone gets. So we're really expensive for our points. Still never finised a game without total air superiority

Back on topic...I look forward to my dark kin. I have dabbled in them before so this codex is me starting, but with knowledge on how they will need to be played. Going to go see if my GW has the codex in store tomorrow, cos been told they do...

I'm not gonna start waving the "woo they're awesome" or "aww they suck" banner over nay units until i've had a chance to sit down and absorb the whole codex when mine gets delivered

[Archon]

Oh there are a lot of positiv things on the new codex.

Start with poison-weaponary over shooty scourges and the deadly wyches to some new toys like heatlance.

I´am glad the talos is in and mostly the same but with some slightly improvments in the options.

I´ve played DE since ´99 when they acualy hit the scene. And I play them mixed and I like the warriors.
With the new rule-set i´ll try warriors and wyches in combo. Weaken the unit with poison-shoots an than finish them with the wyches. This have a lillte downside, if both are too effektiv and both units stay in the relativley open, when they finished the enemy unit - but they´ll gain FnP then:p

I hope these two troop-units will work in synergy with each other. The warriors shoot down the carnifex, the wyches go playing with the tyra-warriors (feel free to fill in your favorite enemy i.E. P-Lord and Banshees, etc.).

For tanks there will be the Ravager and truelbloods with blasters or scourges with blaster/heatlances (don´t remember if they are assault or heavy).

Tali are very good vs. dreadnoughts, witchey vs. elite-squads and warriors vs. high toughness.

[Mal]

Heat lance: 18", Str8, Ap1, Assault1 Lance Melta.

[Drew da Destroya]

Heat lance: 18", Str6, Ap1, Assault1 Lance Melta.

Fixed that for you. Definitely a sweet weapon, though... I'm thinking 10 Scourge, 4 Heat Lances or Blasters, Leader w/ Blast Pistol is gonna be pretty nasty. Probably cost a boatload, though... gonna have to offset it with regular warriors for troops, with pretty minimal upgrades besides the dark lance.

Of course, for Anti-Horde, I'll have to switch it up to Splinter Cannons and drop the blast pistol. 4 Splinter cannons with 4 shots on the move is gonna be pretty sweet... not to mention 6 shots stationary, and 3 shots from each of the regular dudes. Scourge are really shaping up to be one of my favorite "new" units.

[Mal]

its only str6? ohh ok... my picture of the codex page is a little blury but it did look like an 8... ohh well, my bad. still a nice little gun, espically on jump infantry.

[BuFFo]

The Heat Lance looks like a pile of crap at first glance.

I hope after using it on the table top it'll show its worth, but strength 6 just has horrible written all over it.

[Majorcrash]

The Heat Lance looks like a pile of crap at first glance.

I hope after using it on the table top it'll show its worth, but strength 6 just has horrible written all over it.

not sure what your thinking, but my eldar and all its str 6 wpns mop the table on most armies. against 99% of units you wound on a 2+. Even if its not a low AP, your still making your opponent roll saves. I have waited over 10 years for the DE, hated with a passion the old models and never could find anything that would work as a counts as. I cant wait to get my handa on them.

[BuFFo]

not sure what you're thinking,, but my eldar and all its str 6 wpns mop the table on most armies. against 99% of units you wound on a 2+. Even if its not a low AP, your still making your opponent roll saves. I have waited over 10 years for the DE, hated with a passion the old models and never could find anything that would work as a counts as. I cant wait to get my handa on them.

Your insult warrants you no constructive reply.

[eldargal]

If by 'hit with nerfbat' you mean 'had their role in the army changed', then yes.:p

Heat Lances seem ok, not much trouble getting them behind and within half range of tanks when you can mount them on Reavers.


Quite a few units have gotten hit by the nerf bat, whether you can see it or not.

[BuFFo]

If by 'hit with nerfbat' you mean 'had their role in the army changed', then yes.:p

Heat Lances seem ok, not much trouble getting them behind and within half range of tanks when you can mount them on Reavers.

If by "'had their role in the army changed" you mean "their status changed from tabletop use to shelf dust collectors", then yes... :P

Maybe I am being too hard on the Heat Lance. Reavers were always just a suicide unit anyway, so maybe now they'll be worth taking.

I don't know... Been so used to Dark Lances that something like the Heat Lance is just, alien to me... Heck, even blasters were rarely used by me.

[Mal]

Personally im glad about the heatlances on the reavers... I always ran them with blasters (12" range = bad) so being able to reach out and touch someone with an 18" range will be cool, and being able to pop tanks at 9" will be even better... getting bikes that close is going to be really easy...

Even raiders wont be an issue... you won't need to get side or rear armour... because the heatlance is lance and melta your only ever working on AV12 (with a couple of known exceptions). so work the average result of 2D6 which is 7.

7+6=13 which means you will pen AV12 just by rolling the statistical average from front armour, that means its a first turn pop for raiders and other mech nastyness in missions like spearhead.

[eldargal]

This is what I mean, things have changed, we need time to adapt. Units won't play the way they used to, and that doesn't mean they are nerfed.


If by "'had their role in the army changed" you mean "their status changed from tabletop use to shelf dust collectors", then yes... :P

Maybe I am being too hard on the Heat Lance. Reavers were always just a suicide unit anyway, so maybe now they'll be worth taking.

I don't know... Been so used to Dark Lances that something like the Heat Lance is just, alien to me... Heck, even blasters were rarely used by me.

[Mal]

I was having this discussion with one of my groups only other DE player yesturday.

Hes convinced that the new codex will be slightly stronger then the current one, I on the other hand am convinced that the overall power will be about the same but more dilouted over other units, so all our gaming power wont come from the same few units.

This is a good thing, it means we can put more variety out there, and we can mix up our lists when people start learning how to beat them.

[Old_Paladin]

The discussion on which weapons will be better, leads me to the thought that this is also a strength of the army.
You get choices now. It is a hit to the traditional dark lance spammer, as that tactic has been cutback.
But between the lance (and heavy lance), blaster and heat-lance [and haywire grenade launchers] there are a lot of choices, each will work a little differently and be best applied through different tactics/situations.


I also just noticed some of the equipement that people probably won't ever care about: the body armour.
The wychsuit (6+), kabalite armour (5+), ghostplate (4+).
It's little touches like that, that add so much flavor.

[OXRS]

The Heat Lance looks like a pile of crap at first glance.

I hope after using it on the table top it'll show its worth, but strength 6 just has horrible written all over it.

I don't see how. S6 Melta is to AV12 exactly what S8 Melta is to AV14. Statistically, every two Heat Lances that actually hit a vehicle from under 9", will kill said vehicle. Dark Lances can't boast that. 2d6 for penetration brings an actual average result to most rolls, 1d6 gives you an equal chance of getting 1 compared with 6, making the Heat Lance reliable. AP 1 means you have a 50% chance of killing a vehicle if you get a penetrating hit. It statistically takes 9 Dark Lance shots that actually hit to kill an AV12-14 vehicle.

Now I know this is mathhammer, and it can't be relied upon, but I would much sooner trust a weapon that statistically takes 2 hits and reliably kills things, than a weapon that takes 9 hits and is much less reliable in it's penetration rolls.

That said, I'll be taking a strong mix to deal with high toughness targets in addition to vehicles, and the range advantage that the Dark Lance has. Both weapons have value. Neither is even close to being a pile of crap.

[RealGenius]

The discussion on which weapons will be better, leads me to the thought that this is also a strength of the army.
You get choices now.

I completely agree. They probably didn't put it on the top of the power gaming pyramind, but with excellent new models and a lot of good, solid choices I think it will be a great Codex overall.

Probably like the Ork Codex; lots of builds that are fun to play.

[Old_Paladin]

stuff

Just to be clear on the odds on independant dice rolls.
On a single die, you have an equal chance to roll any number.
You're example of 1 and 6 having equal chances also applies to summed rolls; a sum of 6 is equal chance to a sum of 8.

But I understand the point you're going for.
I also understand Buffo's point; Str:6 melta is useless at 9.1" or more, while a blaster is useful all the way to 18". Str: 8 will instant death toughness 4 models, and is better for wounding toughness 5 and higher.

Clearly, the heat-lance is a situational weapon. It does better then all other weapons in that situation; but is a poor choice outside that situation. That's why some people will say it looks poor on paper; but can be effective in actual table-top play.

[OXRS]

Just to be clear on the odds on independant dice rolls.
On a single die, you have an equal chance to roll any number.
You're example of 1 and 6 having equal chances also applies to summed rolls; a sum of 6 is equal chance to a sum of 8.

That seems like a bit of a misrepresentation and only applies for a result of 6-8. On 2d6 you have a 1/21 chance of rolling a 2. You have a 1/7 chance of rolling a 7. You have a 12/21 chance of rolling anything that will be enough to penetrate AV12, a 1/7 chance of rolling a glancing hit and a 6/21 chance of failing the penetration roll. Those are VERY stable odds in the world of 40k. A single d6 is 1/6 for any given result. A dark Lance has a 50% chance of not doing anything to AV12, a 1/6 chance of glancing and a 1/3 chance for getting a penetrating hit.

The odds are different on a triangular curve than a linear curve, there's not really an argument to be had there.

[synack]

The odds are different on a triangular curve than a linear curve, there's not really an argument to be had there.

The argument isn't that the heatlance will be better or worse sub 9", it's weather or not you wanted the added pluses that come with the blaster. For starters, it's better at popping tanks at 18" range. Since you can keep you range, you can happily pop a transport and not have to worry about the counter charge. If you're in melta range with the heatlance, you can't boast that. Which means your heatlance is going to end up being very much a one use sort of deal. With blasters on scourages or reavers, you're able to keep your distance yet stay effective.

I also think the haywaire grenader lauchers are going to work out well for the scourages, but thats just me, because a "can't shoot" result is almost as good for me as a "destroyed" result.

[Old_Paladin]

stuff

I was clearifying; not misrepresenting. The odds are also equal for a 2 and 12, 3 and 11, 4 and 10, etc.
Many things have equal odds. It's important to disqungish that every chance on a single die is equal to any other result.
While the odds on multiple dice are bell curved. Central results are almost even to each other, and extreme results are equal to other extreme results; But central results are not equal to the distant results.

You're fractions are actually pretty much all wrong.
a 2 is 1/36
a 7 is 6in36 = 1/6
a 6 or 8 are each 5/36
a 7+ is 21in36 = 7/12

This also only within 9".
Those odds fall to only 1/6 of a chance to glace, and a zero percent chance to pen. AV12+; at 9.1" or more.
So the odds between the whole scope of the weapon are poor to average overall; but become excellent when it falls within the 9" or less range.

[OXRS]

@Synak and Old_Paladin

My last post was in reference only to this comment...

Just to be clear on the odds on independant dice rolls.
On a single die, you have an equal chance to roll any number.
You're example of 1 and 6 having equal chances also applies to summed rolls; a sum of 6 is equal chance to a sum of 8.
...and the fact that while it may have been an attempt at a clarification, it didn't actually make things any clearer. A triangle curve does not have equal chances, which is how Old_Paladin made it sound. One example, without clarification that it only applies in that specific example does not clarify anything. That's all.



You're fractions are actually pretty much all wrong.
a 2 is 1/36
a 7 is 6in36 = 1/6
a 6 or 8 are each 5/36
a 7+ is 21in36 = 7/12

Again, not really. Your math assumes that it's relevant to record the result of each die individually, rather than the results at all. If die A comes up 1, and die B comes up 6, you don't double the odds of getting 7 by assuming it's different if die A comes up 6 and die B comes up 1. You have a chance that you will have a 1 and a 6, because each die has a 1/6 chance of any given number, but the sum is where the odds change. There are 21 results, not 36.

Anyway, I'm dropping that issue and won't talk about it further here, as my point has been made and there's nothing to be gained from arguing about it.

In regards to the actual weapons as a whole, as I have already said I will be taking a mix as both Dark Lances and Blasters have advantages over a Heat Lance. With AP1 and Melta, the Heat Lance is the only true anti-tank weapon. It takes 5 attacks with that weapon to statistically, reliably, beyond a doubt, kill a vehicle, but it takes 14 with a Dark Lance or a Blaster. The traditional weapons have strengths in that they can ID a Tyranid Warrior, take on MC opponents, and shred through elite infantry at range in addition to threatening vehicles. They are generalist weapons. The Heat Lance is a specialist weapon that make the others look like dirt in it's chosen application. They each have their places, and are good for their own purposes. The reason I brought some math into the topic is to show that it isn't crap, the way that Buffo thinks it is, and to illustrate the point that the new gun has value that was missing before.

[Old_Paladin]

@Synak and Old_Paladin
Again, not really. Your math assumes that it's relevant to record the result of each die individually, rather than the results at all. If die A comes up 1, and die B comes up 6, you don't double the odds of getting 7 by assuming it's different if die A comes up 6 and die B comes up 1. You have a chance that you will have a 1 and a 6, because each die has a 1/6 chance of any given number, but the sum is where the odds change. There are 21 results, not 36.

Wow!
That is not how paired rolls work.
I am talking exclusively about standard paired rolls; ie. 2d6 rolled at the same time, using the sum.

There are 36 different and unique types of solutions 2 dice; period.
Dice A and B ARE different.
A 5 and 1 ARE different then a 1 and 5.

Proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice#Probability

[BuFFo]

The reason I brought some math into the topic is to show that it isn't crap, the way that Buffo thinks it is, and to illustrate the point that the new gun has value that was missing before.

Yeah, the Heat Lance is crap over all. Just by your quote I can show you that you don't know what I am tlaking about at all, since you claim to know what I think makes the Heat Lance crap, and you are wrong.

Heat Lances are NOT the same as Meltaguns. Meltaguns are given to units which are either 1) marines or 2) cheap cost effective models in tough transports. THis means melta guns can close the distance safely and do their job, case in point, Vets in a Chimera.

Dark Eldar don't have tough transports, and this is something that I simply cannot get non DE players to understand, so it is hard for you guys to see this.

Dropping Scourges to kill a tank is not a good thing. The Scourges WILL die next turn, and at what cost? Killing ONE vehicle? Dark Lances already do this at 36" away, on turn 1 and every turn after that.

About the only application I have heard so far that makes Heat Lances good are on reavers, but once again, Reavers are a suicide unit, not meant for anything but destroying one, or if you are lucky two, vehicles before they go down.

Dark Eldar have a special way of playing them, and most people just don't understand it. Once you get a few games under your belt, trust me, you'll be pining for Dark Lances.

Look at the list presented here; http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/10/40k-dark-eldar-first-thoughts.html

That is a horrible list. Wych Cults do NOT work without fire support. TRUST ME. TRUST ME. TRUST ME. The Wyches are going to walk up to Rhinos, Chimeras, and Devilfish and look stupid as the transports are sitting there with the Wyches missing their one blaster shot, or failing due to Smoke. Hell, currently you can't count on TWO Blaster shots to get the job done. This is just an example of a player who doesn't know what DE is about, and he actually owns a DE army!

Two days ago it took, what, 6ish Dark Lance shots to destroy one Ork Trukk in a game I had? I had Wyches sitting outside the Trukk, hoping to blow it up, but they failed with their TWO Blasters.

So yes, by themselves, Heat Lances are crap, but if you put them on Suicide units, they can work. The game is FAR MORE than just numbers...

What stats do Scourges have? Are they still expensive t3 5+ models? Can they Deep Strike without scatter?

[Drew da Destroya]

Scourge are still pretty expensive at 22, but have a 4+ 6++, and access to a lot of other weapons. For every 5, you can have 2 weapons, those being Splinter Cannons, Haywire Launchers, Heat Lances, Blasters, and Dark Lances.

Squad size is 3-10, so you're looking at 4 blasters. Plus, you can give the upgrade character a Blast Pistol, to squeeze in a really short-ranged blaster. Their basic weapon got considerably better, too... poison, ap5, assault 3 12".

I think they get a discount on Dark Lances, which is nice, although I still don't see them being that useful on Scourge... I like moving.

[BuFFo]

Scourge are still pretty expensive at 22, but have a 4+ 6++, and access to a lot of other weapons. For every 5, you can have 2 weapons, those being Splinter Cannons, Haywire Launchers, Heat Lances, Blasters, and Dark Lances.

Squad size is 3-10, so you're looking at 4 blasters. Plus, you can give the upgrade character a Blast Pistol, to squeeze in a really short-ranged blaster. Their basic weapon got considerably better, too... poison, ap5, assault 3 12".

I think they get a discount on Dark Lances, which is nice, although I still don't see them being that useful on Scourge... I like moving.

Scourges are going to sit on my shelves for another 12 years. They have effectively not changed at all since the current book. It doesn't matter what you give them to make them seem cool, they still die to anything that looks in their direction.

At least in the current book you only had to take 5 of them to arm them with weaponry at just under 200 points total, but now I need 10 of them to get the same amount of weaponry at 220 points BASE?

The biggest issue was that Scourges needed to be Jet Packs with their dark lances, and since GW never fixed this glaring issue, Scourges will continue to see no play past the one game new players are going to test them out in. People are going to think it will be nice to fly around with Blasters in the new book, but please, do not waste your time. What would that unit cost? 250 points? 250 points for 10 models that are probably some of the easiest models to kill with any kind of firepower?

[Mal]

Who ever decided to put a heavy weapon option on a unit of jump infantry is an idiot.

[Calypso2ts]

I disagree slightly with your assessment on what the problem with Scourges was. At the end of the day Scourges suffered most being in a HS slot that was occupied by Ravagers. I think it is too soon to really know what role they will play or how lists will evolve to utilize both the new units, mechanics and costs of DE. I think Power Through Pain is going to be interesting to watch evolve in usefulness and we will probably see a significant shift in how units are used.

Tyranids (imo) are better than when they first launched as people learn to use the codex and evolve their tactics. Heck even SW has seen a shift in its army composition since inception.

Also, as the rule set shifts for the next edition I think this codex is much more robust than the previous.

[Old_Paladin]

I won't call Scourges a bad unit, I'm sure a bunch of people will find some very good uses for them.
Maybe squads of 5-6 with a pair of haywire launchers. They will be mobile, able to do some damage to any target; ghostplate is one of the best armours for dark eldar, so it'll take an above-average effort to kill them (they'll be even tougher if they can take out a weak unit early, like a lone skimmer or IG platoon command squad; to get FNP).

However, if their problem was they had to compete for heavy slots; they haven't lost that issue. Now they compete for fast slots; and jetbikes and skyboards are looking to be all the rage right now.

To me, I see Scrouges in the same light I see Incubi... wait, before you all start booing me!
I love the background to both; but I think other things are able to fill their spots in the army, do a very similar job and in the end, be cheaper points-wise.

That's why I said I love bloodbrides so much in my first post.
A unit with a leader with agonizer, one with a shardnet and two with razor-flails is going to be awesome. That's 4 power weapon attacks that wound on a 4+, 6 attacks that re-roll to hit and to wound, then 21 basic attacks; the unit then has a 4++ save in melee against, and reduces the number of, enemy return attacks. This isn't counting getting a charge, or combat drugs, or the possibilities of pain tokens.
And it all comes in much cheaper then (almost half the price) of Incubi.
But in the end, I don't feel Incubi are a bad choice and I wouldn't tell people buying Incubi is a waste. I just like a different choice more.

[Bean]

4 blasters have an 88.89% chance of a pen, and a 29.63% of an outright kill, per savlo.
Those are nice odds actually; and awesome with a 24" threat zone. And the odds of getting immoblized and weapon destroyed (crippling most vehicles), from the combo of glances and pens, are much higher.


@Isotope:
I'm pretty sure that wyches get plasma grenades; so attacks at init.

It's 26.5%, not 29.6%.

29.63 is the expected return from 4 BS:4 lances in terms of Land Raiders destroyed. It is not the probability of destroying the Land Raider.

Still, 26.5% is pretty good given how hard the target is.