chaos space marines rules discussion

[zealotic]

Hey guys, I've seen this thread in a couple other forums, but I wanna put my 2 cents on the table as to what I think should happen with the chaos space marines.

Proposed changes to chaos space marines
These are changes, all else is considered unchanged unless stated
Daemon prince- 170 pts
2 free powers ( still with limitations of marks for requirements)
Mark of Khorne becomes free
Wings- 40 points

Lord
Daemonic steeds 45 pts- put to standard of thunder wolf
They should all count as cavalry ( except the Tzeench one), and each give 3 minor buffs
(as in WS, BS, S, T, etc.), or USR
Daemon weapons- should be 30 pts
Option for Daemonic (runic) armor- 20 pts

Chosen- 20 pts
2 attacks base, with sergeant having 3
5 point combi-weapons
Lightning claws should be 15pts for first, 10 for second, effectively making a pair 25 instead of 20
All heavy weapons should be points costed down 5 points, and auto cannon should be 10
Made troops by Abaddon the despoiler

Terminators
Lightning claw should be 5 pts
Reaper a.cannon should be 15 pts.

Possessed- 25 points
make roll before game begins, scouts removed, all options move down and 6 gives one of choice and an additional roll, additional sixes, and repeats are re-rolled.

Chaos dred.
Arm upgrades reduced in price by 5 points
Existing twin-linked bolter can be upgraded to a flamer for 5 pts, like before.

Chaos space marines
Under options, all weapons costed down by 5 points
( ex. Plasma pistol- 10 pts, flamer- free, lascannon- 15 pts)
Mark of chaos glory- 5 pts, and Reduce price of other marks (15 for slaanesh, 20 for khorne, 35 for nurgle, 30 for tzeench)- not so sure on what these values should be, really just a guess


Chaos Rhino
its fine

Plague marines
Elite choice- becomes troop with typhus or lord w/ appropriate mark

Noise marines
sonic blaster- free option, but loses the heavy and 18” range
blast master- 25 or 30 points
Elite choice- becomes troop with Lucius or lord w/ appropriate mark

Khorne berzerkers- 23 points
Gain rage, rending
Elite choice- becomes troop with Kharne or lord w/ appropriate mark

Thousand Sons
Elite choice- becomes troop with Ahriman or lord w/ appropriate mark
Aspiring sorcerer gets a free spell

Bikers- need a cooler name
100 pts for 2 bikers and champion, 30 pts for a biker
Skilled rider
Mark of chaos glory- 5 pts, and Reduce price of other marks (15 for slaanesh, 20 for khorne, 35 for nurgle, 30 for tzeench)- not so sure on what these values should be, really just a guess

Chaos raptors- Same pts
Gain hit and run
Mark of chaos glory- 5 pts, and Reduce price of other marks (15 for slaanesh, 20 for khorne, 35 for nurgle, 30 for tzeench)- not so sure on what these values should be, really just a guess

Chaos spawn
25 pts, lose slow and purposeful

Havocs
Mark of chaos glory- 5 pts, and Reduce price of other marks (15 for slaanesh, 20 for khorne, 35 for nurgle, 30 for tzeench)- not so sure on what these values should be, really just a guess

Summoned Greater Daemon- 110 pts
Eternal warrior
can take marks like Daemon Prince- no powers though

Lesser Daemon- 12 pts
can take marks, don't count as beacons for other demons at cost of (Khorne- +2 pts, Slaanesh- +1 pts, Tzeench- +3 pts, nurgle- +3 pts)

Proposed rule change for demons
Can deep strike wherever, but if they mis-hap, they don’t roll on the table and instead get killed regardless

Suggested additions

Night Lord character- maybe have wings and make raptors troops, giving the squad he’s with skilled flyer (rider)
Proposed rules: combi flamer or melta, demon weapon, some kind of artifact that causes fear- if he wins combat the opposing unit makes their leadership at -2 regardless of stuborn, doesn't effect fearless

Word Bearers character-
makes icons better, maybe demons can deep strike under the influence of the mark a further 6" away from it
Proposed rules- Dark Apostle ( fallen chaplain) on a demonic mount (non denominational, like a black whispy horse that looks like its made out of smoke, or something), special crozius Arcanum, makes it easier to get daemons in (+1 to deployment rolls or something)

Biker character- maybe on a bike that makes bikes troops or something
Proposed rules- on a demonic bike with a giant speaker system on it, gives the squad he’s with outflank
If he outflanks, when he comes on he triggers a pre-programed sound in the speaker that forces all enemy infantry not in vehicles, fearless, or in combat, have to take a leadership test or run, if double 1’s are rolled that unit does not run, and takes a round of shooting at the closest unit (friend or foe)

Chaos razorback- same as Space Marines
but the options are TL-heavy flamer for 25 pts, reaper autocannon for 20 pts, TL lascannon- 40 pts, with upgrades for chaos rhino
these are just my opinions, discuss and put forth your ideas and opinions!;)

[Mal]

So you want to pick out some of the best rules from across the range of codeci and throw them in with the current chaos rules to make a 'super codex' aka an 'I win button'...

I think your going a little over board with all the additional special rules and point drops for equipment, you'll be left with the cheapest, most versatile and best additional special rules marine army to date.

two words for ya mate... OVER KILL.

And for the record, I play a chaos marine army.

[zealotic]

I had never intended to make the additions overkill, all the same, give actual ideas for making stuff more balanced and I'd actually be nice back

my thinking was that the marks were over priced, the Khorne Berzerkers weren't what they should be according to the fluff, the chaos space marines are less effective, by a good shot, than grey hunters, and other costing up to where I thought things should be going.

Give me some ideas to bring those over powered areas back in line

I've edited the first post, my idea was to make it so that less things are troops, but more things can be made troops, effectively making the codex as flexible as possible, and the I thought my fix for the demon prince wasn't half bad

[Mal]

In a word... No

This serves no pratical purpose, GW don't care what we want in a new codex, they will put in what they want.. what they think will sell minis. If your doing this to use it as some houserule codex, then your wasting your time. If you want CSM to run like space wolves then play chaos wolves (chaos played using C:SW).

Codeci rules are not written based on fluff... if they were space marine would cose 1k points each, of course chaos space marines don't run like grey hunters, but then neither do codex space marines.. the reason for this... in your all important fluff... space wolves never went over to chaos and they operate outside of the codex astartes... you will never find chaos that runs like the wolves do, at least not in the fluff.

If you want me to help you rewrite C:CSM then you will need to give me a good reason for doing so, otherwise your just wasting your time and mine.

Im not saying this to be harsh or critical... im simply being honest.

[zealotic]

You are REALLY pissed, and I just wanted to do this for fun, I like writing this kind of stuff in my free time, and wanted to do some light hearted discussions about OPINIONS on a GAME.

you still pissed?... livid? GREAT

I just wanted some opinions, I'm not trying to change the way the game's played, and I didn't add in wolf guard and Logan, stick a pentagram on'im and call him ABBADON II, I'm just looking at the direction some of the rules are going and seeing if I can have some fun updating the codex for my own purposes

If your job was to surf these boards and give people advise, then yes it would be a waste of your time, is it?

No?

then cool let me have an opinion

[UltramarineFan]

I'm not really bothered about most of it just pleeeeaaaassseeee can we have a dark apostle in the next codex? I would love GW if they did.

[zealotic]

in the vein of flame wars, I have a question;

GW seems to be making a character version of most units, if not damn near all of'em

what would you want to see in a dark apostle special character?

as far as normal dark apostle rules, what would you want to see?

[zenjah]

This serves no pratical purpose

Why so cranky?

He wants to talk about ways to improve the CSM codex. If that isn't an interesting topic to you, why post at all?

On the topic:

Chosen should have options to better reflect that they are elite chaos space marines. Right now all they get is Infiltrate and extra special weapons. I'd like to see something to make them more elite.

I'd like to see Daemon Weapons available to Daemon Princes.

I would like for Summoned Daemons to be less generic.

I would love to see an Alpha Legion HQ, but am not a fan of the one you proposed. I'd rather see Alpha Legion with more Infiltrators. Either by adding Infiltrate to the army or by making Chosen into Troops.

[Mal]

Im not cranky, upset or anything... im just being bluntly honest... I have seen thousands of these threads across hundreds of boards but I have yet to see one that ends well.

Im sorry if you don't want my opinion, but the simple fact is this does serve absolutly no pratical purpose... however if you just want to do it for fun, then sure go ahead... but tell people your not being serious about it in your original post please.

[zenjah]

Im sorry if you don't want my opinion, but the simple fact is this does serve absolutly no pratical purpose... however if you just want to do it for fun, then sure go ahead... but tell people your not being serious about it in your original post please.

Your comments in this thread serve absolutely no practical purpose. If you are just doing it for fun, then sure go ahead. But tell people you are trolling in your original post please.

[zealotic]

Chosen should have options to better reflect that they are elite chaos space marines. Right now all they get is Infiltrate and extra special weapons. I'd like to see something to make them more elite.

I'd like to see Daemon Weapons available to Daemon Princes.

I would like for Summoned Daemons to be less generic.

I would love to see an Alpha Legion HQ, but am not a fan of the one you proposed. I'd rather see Alpha Legion with more Infiltrators. Either by adding Infiltrate to the army or by making Chosen into Troops.

Daemon princes with daemon weapons seems a bit like a pig eating bacon, but it happens. My opinion would be to make the weapon 50 or 60 points because of who's carrying it

the problem with less generic is that you start to overlap into the Chaos Daemons codex, at that point you could just ally them together, a friendly solution, or be able to take marks on the demons would be my only other thought for a general game friendly solution.

For an Alpha Legion HQ who screams Alpha Legion from the fluff, primarily Legion right now, one could think up an Alpharius character ( not the actual primarch of course)
The choice could be 2 identical Lords, one giving scout to the unit they deploy in, and the other giving infiltrate, only one can outflank in the same game, one could give stealth, and the other does something else
Wargear would probably be something along the lines of the scout being assaulty and the infiltrator being shooty, but I'd need a think tank and various illicite substances to think up a cool set up for both

Upon further inspection I don't think that chosen should have infiltrate anymore since they're based on the old space marine vet.s with USR's, but I'll rack my brain over my homework thinking of what would be a good substitute

[zealotic]

I've edited the daemons so they can take marks;

Summoned Greater Daemon- 110 pts
Eternal warrior
can take marks like Daemon Prince- no powers though

Lesser Daemon- 12 pts
can take marks, don't count as beacons for other demons at cost of (Khorne- +2 pts, Slaanesh- +1 pts, Tzeench- +3 pts, nurgle- +3 pts)

keep the ideas coming, this is looking pretty cool!

[zenjah]

I know what you mean about Daemon Princes wielding Daemon Weapons, but its seems to happen in the fluff. Daemons don't seem to have a problem with wielding weapons with other Daemons bound in them. For some reason, if I were to make a Daemon Prince for my army, I would want him to have a Daemon Weapon.

I think Marks/Icons on Summoned Daemons could be an adequate solution to the problem of them being too generic. But I would rather they were even more differentiated.

I like your new idea for n Alpharius/Omegon themed HQ better than your first Alpha Legion HQ idea.

[zealotic]

I like your new idea for n Alpharius/Omegon themed HQ better than your first Alpha Legion HQ idea.

The idea behind the first guy was from some fluff I read, maybe from one of the chaos codexes, where the alpha legion showed up and played a sound across the planet that drove the population insane, due to a century long campaign of somehow making that a part of the population's collective psyche.

Of course that could work just as well being a Night Lords Character, throwing my evil plan of having scoring Raptors into the Warp, but a Night Lord on a Kick *** bike seems cool enough for me!

what would you want the Alpharius/Omegon HQ to have for wargear, I never got to finish the book and so don't know what the guys carried, probably just power weapons and and souped up pistols.

For cool factor one could carry a weapon that's buffed by the other, like if you shot the unit with the shooty lord, the assaulty lord would get some kinda buff for assaulting that unit
Of course that could be as simple as making the guy's gun pinning and forcing the check at -2 Ld or something

Ideas?

[Mal]

@zenjah

The op posted asking for comments.. if you read my first post you'll see I gave my opinion... there was no trolling anywhere in this thread until your comment.

Do I expect everyone to like my responses? No I don't... but ask yourself this, would you rather I lied to you or told you the truth. My replies in this thread have been 100% truth... now the thing about truth, everybody wants it but nobody wants to hear it... think on that before making your next post.

[MarshalAdamar]

I think that in the next codex in 2042 they should have some independent characters that grant army wide special rules Night lords = White scars, Word Bearers = Ultra Marines, Alpha legion = Raven guard

I’m not suggesting they would use those rules, just using them as an example.

Since I play word bearers I would LOVE to see the Dark Apothecary return with some special rules for the army. I also think that instead of having to have Lord Vlad Von Richtenbocker the second of Tanthius special character We should have generic Lords of specific armies that would grant army wide special rules.

So in stead of Shrike you would take "Dark Apothecary" there by having a word bearer’s army the HQ choice might lock out certain other HQ choices or units or could just give a few rules like Khan does for the white scars.

This would help create more diversity in the CSM army build besides Black legion / Death guard Seems to be the only two I see much of. Mostly plague marines.

I compared the C: SM to the C: CSM and the space marines have about 15-17 more unit entries than the C: CSM

While I don’t want the Codex and Chaos marines to be the same there are some things that I think Chaos just didn’t pick up on.

Like what you ask…

Well I’m glad you asked.

Razor backs! The Chaos boys look across the battle field and see that the loyalist dogs have strapped a huge gun to the top of their rhino! But alas WHERE would we get such a vehicle? Says the Iron hand lord staring at the reaper auto cannon from the defiler and then across the assembly bay at a Chaos rhino… hmmmmmmmmmm

Idea is to keep the chaos and allow the evil marines to take some logical steps to upgrade they’re weapons systems in logical way with out losing the chaos flavor.

Think about something like Chaos razor back with TL heavy bolter, upgrade to Reaper auto cannon, TL heavy flamer. We have a razor back, the reaper makes it unique to Chaos, heavy bolters are used by havocs, as are auto cannons and well flamer are cool. Las cannons and plasma tech is scarce and used by/ horded so those options are excluded.

Chaos has the Predator destructor and the annihilator what about the predator reaper? Reaper auto cannon turret with auto cannon sponson or heavy flamer sponson upgrade?

Something equivalent to the crusader land raider, the chaos boys have the corner on TL bolter?

Those were just some of the things that I came up with while naval gazing.

[MarshalAdamar]

Chosen should have options to better reflect that they are elite chaos space marines. Right now all they get is Infiltrate and extra special weapons. I'd like to see something to make them more elite.

I would like for Summoned Daemons to be less generic.

.

I'm torn on the chosen, I agree that I think it would be cool for them to be more elite. but right now they're only 18 points They're not very pricey now but they also don't seem very "Chosen of Chaos" That got infiltrate and 2 more special weapons. But they can take 5 power weapons! So there is that!

I think in the future they should be more like Sternguard Vets

I think that the Daemons should stay the same but have the option to take the same mark as the lord or the same mark as any Icon bearer in the army.

so you have a lord or Khorne you can have lesser daemons with Mark of Khorne Then you have a squad of CSM's which Icon of Nurgle you could also buy lesser daemons with the Mark or Nurgle. Or you could still buy the generic with no mark for 13 points. Marks for daemons = pts cost as the Icons.

[zealotic]

Razorback would be a great idea! It seems a bit generic and stealing from space marines, but eh they can do what they want, they're CHAOS!!!

ok so no Las, and tw-linked plasma gun upgrade, but what would you do for the tw-linked assault. cannon?

2 reaper autocannons just makes the thing a Hydra with a transport capacity, for the same cost!!
You can't put just one on, because that would be borderline useless

Of course at this point one could argue, that the purpose of the tank would be to first and foremost transport its cargo, but it's now damaging its own capabilities by performing its very function, so we need an alternative

I would suggest something like the frag cannon that the blood angels have, but that's just cheating.

Ideas?

[MarshalAdamar]

I was thinking no assault cannon, seems that the Reaper is the older equivalent. Codex space marines have terminators with assault cannons and Chaos termnators have Reaper auto cannons.

I think one Reaper is good enough for Chaos, the dont have ANY razor backs right now. LOL

Though the thought of two Reapers is awesome, but not right for a transport.

I was thinking of something like

Assault Cannon = Reaper auto cannon
TL heavy flamer = TL Heavy flamer
TL heavy bolter = TL heavy bolter
Lascannon = Can't have
Las/Plas = Can't have

But I did have a thought, what about a missile launcher for the Chaos razor back!?

Seems that’s a favorite of the Havocs too. Chaos missile launcher S8 AP: 3 48" heavy 1 twin linked or frag S4 AP5

I came up with that because the closest thing is the Typhoon missile launcher which is heavy 2, for chaos everything that shoots twice for the loyalists is instead twinlinked for Chaos.

Storm bolter = assault 2 vs. Twin linked bolter = Rapid fire twin linked.

Then again they already have the havoc launcher

[zealotic]

so for now, points values aside, the chaos razorback would have a TL Heavy bolter standard, with the option for a Reaper Autocannon, TL heavy flamer, and I think that the TL lascannon should still be available, due to utility, but no las/plas.

now points

TL heavy flamer- 25 pts, Reaper Autocannon- 20 pts, and for balance's sake the TL lascannon would be 40 pts.

yea? nea?

[MarshalAdamar]

I had never intended to make the additions overkill, all the same, give actual ideas for making stuff more balanced and I'd actually be nice back

My thinking was that the marks were over priced, the Khorne Berzerkers weren't what they should be according to the fluff, the chaos space marines are less effective, by a good shot, than grey hunters, and other costing up to where I thought things should be going.

Give me some ideas to bring those over powered areas back in line

I've edited the first post, my idea was to make it so that less things are troops, but more things can be made troops, effectively making the codex as flexible as possible, and the I thought my fix for the demon prince wasn't half bad

Work is slow so I'll take a stab at this then post my Dark Apostle rules.

Marks. I think they're cheap enough right now.

Your basic CSM is actually BETTER than grey hunters. I'll get to that in a minute. The marks make a GREAT unit GREATER! So you don't want to them to be too cheap.

As for Grey hunters being better than CSM's I would have to disagree.

CSM's can have two special weapons just like GH

CSM and GH have Bolter, Bolt pistol, CCW, frag and Krak grenades.

They both can have two special weapons

But

Grey hunters are only LD8 CSM’s are LD 10 with a Champ!

You can have 20 CSM’s in one squad!

GH have no SGT or Champ equivalent. Unless you take a Wolf Guard and that takes up an Elites slot even if you only have 3 WG.

The only upshot for the GH is the ATSKNF and counter attack. (Which are awesome) but those don’t necessarily make them better than Cam’s I don’t think.

[MarshalAdamar]

I think that could work, I still think that las cannons would be hard to come by so higher points cost would keep them from being spammed so I could get behind that.

Looks good.

[zealotic]

The reason why I think Grey hunters are better is because if you build an identical squad of grey hunters and CSM, with a WG with equivalent equipment will always be cheaper, and then the grey hunters will never be overtaken, and are worse in night fight (which I seem to see a lot more than I should)

the natural counter argument is of course that a chaos space marine squad can do more things than a grey hunter squad can, and that you pay for the options, which I agree with but I still think they're a little over priced.

I've added the chaos razorback to the list, probably gonna get another flame war over that, but I'll do it ;)

[MarshalAdamar]

I can see your point, the points cost for the actual equipment is over costed. I justify with the fact that its more scarce. But you can still have 20 CSM's in one squad!

You give them mark of nurgle which if you have 20 CSM's is dirt cheap on a points per model basis!

[MarshalAdamar]

Dark Apostle
WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 I:4 A:3 W:3 LD:10 SV 3+ 4i+

Stubborn

War gear:
Dark Crozius = Power weapon thatc ounts as a poison weapon.
Dark Rosarius = Confers a 4+ invul save
Icon of Chaos Glory (reroll all failed LD, moral and pinning tests)
Bolt pistol, bolter, frag grenades, Krak grenades.

Litanies of hate: Dark Apostle grants himself and the unit he joins with furious charge USR

Righteous fury: Dark Apostle grants the unit his is with the “stubborn” USR

Dark Apostle can be accompanied by a reclusium command squad.

Dark Apostle can trade in all war gear for Terminator armor, Twin liked bolter or combi weapon, Dark Crozius, Dark Rosarius and Icon of Chaos Glory.

Reclusium command squad 3-6 Chosen of Chaos marines

Chosen of Chaos marines: WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 A:2 W:1 LD:10 SV 3+
Power armor, Close combat weapon, bolt pistol, bolter, frag grenades, Krak grenades,

Up to 4 Chosen of Chaos marines may choose any of the following
Melta Gun, Plasma Gun, Flamer, Power weapon, Power fist

One Model may carry a Heavy flamer

Chosen of Chaos marines can be upgraded to the following (only one per squad)

Dark Champion: WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 A:3 W:1 LD:10 SV 3+ 5i+
Power armor, refractor field, Power weapon, bolt pistol, frag grenades, Krak grenades.

Banner bearer: WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 A:2 W:1 LD:10 SV 3+ 5i+
Power armor, Close combat weapon, bolt pistol, bolter, frag grenades, Krak grenades.
Corrupt Banner:
• All Chaos units with in 6” gain fearless and furious assault
• Adds +1 to the combat resolution for the unit it’s in.
• Functions as an Icon of Chaos glory and affects all Chaos units with in 6” as such.
• All enemy units with in 6” have their leadership reduced by one.
• Daemons deep striking within 12” of the icon do not scatter.

As an option if the Dark Apostle is in Terminator armor then all Chosen of Chaos space marines MAY trade in ALL war gear in exchange for Terminator armor, twin linked bolter and power weapon. They may have access to all the terminator weapon options for the points listed.

One Model may still be upgraded to Banner Bearer and one to a Dark Champion but in each case the invul save is increased to a 4+

Since the Word bearers venerate all the Chaos gods with preference over another the Dark Apostle may never have a Mark of on of the Chaos gods. So I had him come with the icon of Chaos glory alreay.

Same with the command squad, they may never have marks and they don't need an Icon of chaos glory because the Dark Apostle does.

Army wide special rules

Also an army lead by a Dark Apostle gains +1 to the reserve role for summoned daemons. This reflects their affinity for the daemonic and the blessing of the Chaos gods for continual rituals, rites and offerings.

[zealotic]

The only comments I have to make are AWESOME, and that I think the Dark Apostle should be fearless, and confer preferred enemy, but that may've been a choice to make him different from his not so fallen fellows

[MarshalAdamar]

I tried to give the Dark Apostle the flavor a Chaplain with out just duplicating his stats and abilities.

I looked at the Wolf Priest for inspiration actually but he already gives prefered enemy to his unit.

but it would work just fine with prefered enemy, the Wolves codex and the CSM codex are very similar actually! So go with either one, I think that they both would be good. but like the wolf priest he should have to declare what type of unit they have prefered enemy for.

As to fearless, I decided not to have the Dark Apostle make a unit fearless: that takes supreme faith. Something I don’t think CSM’s have as deeply as the loyalists. CSM’s don’t have ATSKNF so I used that as the basis. Some units are fearless but they are special, here we’re talking about a Chaos lord who can by inspiration or fear make a unit fearless. I think stubborn fits better and it makes the Dark Apostle similar but not just some generic “evil chaplain”

The Dark Apostle makes a unit stubborn always tests on highest leadership, and with the icon of Chaos glory they can re roll so they’re about fearless but not quite. but they also don't take fearless wounds in CC!

Then Wolf priests give preferred enemy against one type of enemy model in stead of reroll all failed hits in the first round of combat if you charge.

So I gave the Dark Apostle the ability to conferfurious charge.

Other than that he’s got the same stat line roughly as a Master of Sanctity.

Chappy’s make their unit fearless
Drk Apos makes their unit Stubborn
Chappy’s reroll all rolls to hit on the charge
Drk Apos have furious assault

[the jeske]

As to fearless, I decided not to have the Dark Apostle make a unit fearless: that takes supreme faith. Something I don’t think CSM’s have as deeply as the loyalists.
do you know the WB fluff ? because WB are SoB of chaos as faith goes.

the crozius was always a demon weapon and I think it should stay one [not that there is anything bad with a poison demon weapon] . WB are known that they warbands tend to be very unbalanced and shaped by the vision of their warlords . instead of making the apostol a copy of a chaplain why not give him a list of USR to pick from . something like FC/infiltration/scoring for one unit . then he would make sense compering to a DP.
ah and WB lesser should be able to buy marks.

[zealotic]

so as far as rules, I'll think about pts once the rules are done, howabout making the dark apostle have the stat line of a chaos sorcerer ( as in the same as the old reclusiarch), giving a non-denominational demon weapon standard, which acts as an icon with a 12 inch radius, the ability to buy marks like the Lord.

An idea would be to make the dark rosarius not protect the dark apostle at all, giving him the standard 5+ invul that all chaos characters have, and making the rosarius work somewhat like a flechette discharger, as in wounding some proportion of enemy models which attack the apostle every turn.

what do you guys think?
and what proportion do you think the rosarius should wound, should the wound be savable, or should the dark rosarius do something completely different in your opinion?

[zealotic]

stupid idea;

ok so chaos has no psyker defence, but just giving them hoods would just be boring so I propose an ability attached to the sorcerer that would allow it to retaliate against psykers depending on the mark on the sorcerer
example
mark of Slaanesh- chance to take control of psyker for a turn
mark of Tzeench- chance to take control of the power, or some kind of back fire
mark of Nurgle- no f**king idea

what would you guys want these abilities to be?
or do you think I'm just hitting the hookah too hard? ;)

[DarkLink]

I think Chaos paychic defense should fall back on Daemons. It shouldn't affect the enemy psyker, except to make them a fair bit more likely to suffer Perils of the Warp. However, being as fickle as the Chaos Gods are, the Chaos Sorcerer might be more susceptible as well...

I would say that it should cause perils on any doubles. That would change it from a 1 in 18 chance of suffering perils to a 1 in 6 chance.

[zealotic]

the problem with that is its too simple, but a great idea, I really like the idea of the defence being styled after the patron god of the sorcerer, like chaos undivided would cause perils of the Warp on any doubles, and you've seen my ideas as far as other ideas go.

How would your idea be implemented though, would it be a psychic power that the sorcerer casts, and maintains effect during the over all turn (as in that of both players), a wargear option?

How many points do you think it should be? and what would that point cost be if it did effect even the chaos player as well.

my opinion is that it should be a power that causes perils on any doubles, but once its cast it doesn't further effect the sorcerer, and stays active both players' turns, maybe 25 pts?

further opinion, GW has been making the powers included in the cost of the psyker, what do you think that the chaos sorcerer should cost if that should become the case?
My opinion is maybe 135, with the same restrictions on powers that he always had (as in required marks and such)

[MarshalAdamar]

What about an opposed check? Sort of like the hood now, but if the sorcerer was successful they suffer perils automatically or something like that?

[MarshalAdamar]

do you know the WB fluff ? because WB are SoB of chaos as faith goes.

the crozius was always a demon weapon and I think it should stay one [not that there is anything bad with a poison demon weapon] . WB are known that they warbands tend to be very unbalanced and shaped by the vision of their warlords . instead of making the apostol a copy of a chaplain why not give him a list of USR to pick from . something like FC/infiltration/scoring for one unit . then he would make sense compering to a DP.
ah and WB lesser should be able to buy marks.

Well there is that. The more I read about the WB the more they seem to be along the screaming fanatic line. So make the Dark Apostle fearless but also make all WB Units fearless?

As for the Crozius a non denominational daemon weapon is cool. The Rosarius is something else. I would leave the invul save at 4+ or make it radically different.

And the Dark Apostle is a copy of a Chaplain; in fact he WAS a chaplain so I would think you would want him to be very similar to his former self.

[Kevlarshark]

He was a Chaplin...But has been just about the opposite for several thousand years! So if his abilities were somehow the opposite of the SM Chaplains then it would make sense too.

How about a return of the 'demagogue' rule? Something along the lines of:-

"The Dark Apostle is exceptionally well versed in the counter arguments to the Imperial creed. Moreover he is a skilled orator who is able to sow dismay and doubt amongst even the most Zealous of his foes. No enemy model within 12" of the Dark Apostle can benefit from the And they Shall know no Fear, Fearless or Stubborn special rules."

That would make him quite a nice Anti-Chaplin?

[DarkLink]

No enemy model within 12" of the Dark Apostle can benefit from the And they Shall know no Fear, Fearless or Stubborn special rules."

A mob will hunt you down and burn you alive if try this rule.

Not only would this make no real sense in the fluff (why would Eldar care if the chaos guys don't like the emperor, and why would SMs or IG listen to blasthphemous traitors), but rules like this are only good for pissing people off. They're not fun to play against.

[Kevlarshark]

A mob will hunt you down and burn you alive if try this rule.

A Bit Harsh...The fluff is full Chaos messing with minds, why wouldn't a Dark Apostle have an ability like that? Even Eldar are made nervous (or blind by hatred) by the servants of the "great Enemy", Space Marines have changed sides to fight their own battle brothers mid battle, hordes of guardsmen have gone insane due to the infulence of Chaos.

Rules wise, the ability is short ranged and most of the troops affected are quite high leadership any way so it would not be so overpowered to keep
pissing people off. It would mainly effect close combat... and even then only if you lose the combat. I don't see how this suggested rule could be that much more annoying than say Jaws of the World Wolf.

[DarkLink]

A Bit Harsh...

It was a bit of a joke. This will fit in with the likes of JotWW and the Doom of Malan'tai, so nerds will rage;).



Rules wise, the ability is short ranged and most of the troops affected are quite high leadership any way so it would not be so overpowered to keep . It would mainly effect close combat... and even then only if you lose the combat. I don't see how this suggested rule could be that much more annoying than say Jaws of the World Wolf.

Why would my Grey Knights, not a single one of which in the entire history of the Imperium has ever turned to chaos, care in the least bit that some traitor is listing bulletpoints about why the Chaos Gods are cooler than the Emperor?

The problem with the rule is that while it fits the fluff of the apostle, it doesn't fit the fluff of any of the other armies. Sister of Battle and Space Marines exist purely to exterminate heretics and similar threats to the Imperium just like the apostle. Hearing the apostle rant would just make them more angry-er at him.

Plus, rules that ignore other unit-specific rules are freaking annoying. "What do you mean, JotWW ignores my Eternal Warrior!?"

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter that the rule doesn't have that big of an effect. Doom of Malan'tai and JotWW aren't that spectacular, either. They're just annoying as heck to play against. This rule would be the same thing. I get annoyed when I have to take a leadership test at all for my GKs, let alone having an opponent who makes me flat out lose my Fearless rule.

[Kevlarshark]

Perhaps it should be an opposed Ld roll ability (like mind war)...With the disadvantage of inspiring hatred in the enemy unit if they pass.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I was trying to think of something along those lines. Something like the defending unit must pass a leadership test or be at -1 A, or something to that effect.

[zealotic]

If I can chime in, I would make the ability dependent on the victim, as in fearless units go mad with rage unable to distinguish friend from foe, stubborn takes a leadership test or that happens (shot in the dark there), and they shall know no fear could have some other effect.

[L192837465]

Personally, I could care less about the chaplain. He was used in one book of the 8 chaos powers after the fall. Whatever.

My biggest grief: Chaos Dreadnaughts.

They SHOULD be:

Cost: 125pts

Front Side Rear Ws Bs S A
12 12 10 5 4 5 4

Replace ranged weapon with second ccw for +1a - Free
It should start armed with twin heavy bolters and upgrade them for:
Reaper Autocannon: 5 points
Multi-melta: 10 pts
Plasma cannon: 10pts
Replace CCW with Missile launcher: free

Rage rules: same, except:
On a 1: fire all weapons twice at nearest enemy unit, dread cannot move
on a 6: gains fleet and if contacts enemy (or is already engaged), adds +2 attacks instead of 1 for charging.

If two ccw, both results are a "6"
If no ccw, both results are a "1"

[Mal]

I think 7 Str 10 attacks on the charge is a bit too much for only 125 points there...

4 attacks base is already double the loyalist dreadnought (which standard dread only had the option for a single dccw)...

So for 20 points more you get a higher ws/bs, double the A and extra special rules that have no negative side effects.

A little too much, either up the price, or down the bonuses.

As it stands now, the current chaos dreadnought has the exact same stat line as the loyalist one, and with the same basic weapon loadout is still 5 points cheaper... yes there is the crazed special rule... yes I think this needs changing... but in changing this you should make a walking behemoth that can annihilate anything it touches for only 125 points.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, while I've always though that Dreads should be a little better in CC, being that good for that cheap is a bit much. Or, a lot much.

Plus, I don't even know why they bother with the TL heavy bolter weapon on Dreads. It's nearly worthless, as you can have a much better weapon for a few more points.

[Xas]

tbh all I really want for on an "improvement" front is a few things:

make chaos dreadnoughts not turn around and shoot yourself/exposing their ***.

remove the idea that the icon is a wargear that gives you a marks benefit:
a unit can have a mark of chaos for x points (where X is the current points).
one model can be a icon bearer for 15 points and work as a locator beacon (yes the gods of chaos will guide jumptroops as well!)


choosen cost 20 points, get +1A and can take as many marks as they want (none twice). they can replace their bolters with 4 assoult weapons, 1 heavy OR a 5th assoult weapon, additionally they can replace their ccw with 4 special close combat weapons and/or replace pistol with plasmapistol.

they can be upgraded to terminator armor for +20 (40 in total so as much as termiantor champions) points/model, replacing bolter and pistol with twinlinked bolter, ccw with power weapon. terminator choosen can take every option like chaos terminators but melee upgrades count towards the squads total of 4 and the reaper/heavy flamer counts as the squads heavy weapon.

the whole unit can be euqipped with jumppacks for +15 points, getting heroic intervention but loosing the option for 1 heavy weapon (still 5 spezials)
the whole unit can be quipped with bikes for +20 points but loosing the option for 1 heavy weapon (still 5 spezials)

in addition the champion can be equipped with everything a chaos lord can for adapted price (deamon weapon is less valueable as a single 1 kills of the champion).


HQs and choosen can have all of the marks once OR one mark twice (ultimate mark similar to culttroops).
deamon weapons no longer loose all attacks automatically on a 1. instead the bearer may make a lds check to only take one automatic hit from his weapon and gets to make his normal attacks with no +1d6 this turn (if he fails the effects are same as now)
deamon weapons get stronger depending on the marks of their owner as well with ultimate marks as follows:
khorne +2d6 attacks (so a total of +4d6)
nurgle poison 2+ and every model attacking the bearer has to make a T check bevor doing so or cannot attack at all this turn
tzeentch bearer may reroll every single d6 rolled for himself (this effect shuts down for one player turn if you fail your lds check after rolling two (as you can reroll that dice as well) 1s for the deamon weapon in a row)
slanesh bearer doubles his WS, I, A, gets fleet and doubles his movement (so 12" move, 2d6 fleet, 12" charge). movement only doubles if he is on his own.


tl;dr: fix icons, make choosen worthwhile,

[mstingray]

I actually just started creating my own Chaos Dex a few days ago, having missed this thread entirely. As to the psychic defence debate, I made sorcerers have a special rule that casues all psykers to suffer perils of the warp on a double, as I believe them to be to arrogant to stop it, they are partly chaos after all, but have equipment in the army that could nullify the powers, although I haven't thought of it yet.

I included a kind of eye of the gods in there ("borrowed" from the fantasy chaos) as I believe that will be awesome having a tooled up chaos Lord walking up to a Carnifex, slaying it and getting a bonus (or turned into a spawn!!)

[Smurfs]

I would love to see Chaos get a Fast Attack vehicle of some kind, along the lines of a Vyper or a Land Speeder.

[Daemonette666]

Some of your changes sound O.K., however some are either weaken the army too much or make it way too powerful. I have made comments to some I disagreed with, but added what I thought it should be changed to.


Daemon prince- 170 pts
2 free powers ( still with limitations of marks for requirements)
Mark of Khorne becomes free
Wings- 40 points

The cost you give for Daemon Princes is way too high. Keep them as they are in the codex now.

The Chaos Lords are OK as they are, I would leave them alone, maybe give them a 4+ invul save, but nothing more.


Chosen- 20 pts
2 attacks base, with sergeant having 3 5 point combi-weapons Lightning claws should be 15pts for first, 10 for second, effectively making a pair 25 instead of 20 All heavy weapons should be points costed down 5 points, and auto cannon should be 10 Made troops by Abaddon the despoiler

Again keep the prices comparable to what Vanilla Space Marines pay. Use the veteran vanguard or Sternguard as an example. Abbadon should allow Terminators to be troop choices, not Chosen, and allow the true grit, or counter attack USR.


Terminators
Lightning claw should be 5 pts
Reaper a.cannon should be 15 pts.

Lightning claws should be the same cost as a SM Terminator, while the reaper AC should cost a much as an assault cannon.


Possessed- 25 points
make roll before game begins, scouts removed, all options move down and 6 gives one of choice and an additional roll, additional sixes, and repeats are re-rolled.

I sort of like the possessed thing, but a six should not give a 2rd roll for skills just that you get to choose one. Keep their price the same.


Chaos dred.
Arm upgrades reduced in price by 5 points
Existing twin-linked bolter can be upgraded to a flamer for 5 pts, like before.

The Dreadnought is OK as it is in the current codex.


Chaos space marines
Under options, all weapons costed down by 5 points
( ex. Plasma pistol- 10 pts, flamer- free, lascannon- 15 pts)
Mark of chaos glory- 5 pts, and Reduce price of other marks (15 for slaanesh, 20 for khorne, 35 for nurgle, 30 for tzeench)- not so sure on what these values should be, really just a guess

Their Icons are already set at a good points valuel, though the weapons they get and the cost are too expensive when compared to the current Space Marine codex.



Plague marines
Elite choice- becomes troop with typhus or lord w/ appropriate mark

Noise marines
sonic blaster- free option, but loses the heavy and 18” range
blast master- 25 or 30 points
Elite choice- becomes troop with Lucius or lord w/ appropriate mark

Khorne berzerkers- 23 points
Gain rage, rending
Elite choice- becomes troop with Kharne or lord w/ appropriate mark

Thousand Sons
Elite choice- becomes troop with Ahriman or lord w/ appropriate mark
Aspiring sorcerer gets a free spell

These I sort of agree with, It allows you to theme your army a lot closer to what the Legion warbands would look like. The cost of them should be as per the codex, but make sonic blasters part of the 20 points cost for a noise marine and reduce the Blast masters cost to 20 points.


Bikers- need a cooler name
100 pts for 2 bikers and champion, 30 pts for a biker
Skilled rider
Mark of chaos glory- 5 pts, and Reduce price of other marks (15 for slaanesh, 20 for khorne, 35 for nurgle, 30 for tzeench)- not so sure on what these values should be, really just a guess

Again the icon costs are already fine, though I would allow them to buy the skilled rider USR rather than get it free, or allow the special biker lord to confer it to all bikers and make them troop choices if he is leading the army.


Chaos raptors- Same pts
Gain hit and run
Mark of chaos glory- 5 pts, and Reduce price of other marks (15 for slaanesh, 20 for khorne, 35 for nurgle, 30 for tzeench)- not so sure on what these values should be, really just a guess

Same as the bikers, Icons already OK. Chaos lord confers hit and run, and makes them troops if he leads army.


Chaos spawn
25 pts, lose slow and purposeful

Drop the slow and purposeful, and give them a stupidity rule, where they roll = or less than their leadership or stand around and do nothing unless attacked. points cost is OK, give them a 4+ save


Havocs
Mark of chaos glory- 5 pts, and Reduce price of other marks (15 for slaanesh, 20 for khorne, 35 for nurgle, 30 for tzeench)- not so sure on what these values should be, really just a guess

Havocs - keep icon cost as is, and allow them to pay for the tank hunters USR.


Summoned Greater Daemon- 110 pts
Eternal warrior
can take marks like Daemon Prince- no powers though

Lesser Daemon- 12 pts
can take marks, don't count as beacons for other demons at cost of (Khorne- +2 pts, Slaanesh- +1 pts, Tzeench- +3 pts, nurgle- +3 pts)

Proposed rule change for demons
Can deep strike wherever, but if they mis-hap, they don’t roll on the table and instead get killed regardless

I would not change the Daemnon rules from the current codex. They work well, and if you want marks of chaos take a Chaos Daemon Army.

Suggested additions


Night Lord character- maybe have wings and make raptors troops, giving the squad he’s with skilled flyer (rider)
Proposed rules: combi flamer or melta, demon weapon, some kind of artifact that causes fear- if he wins combat the opposing unit makes their leadership at -2 regardless of stuborn, doesn't effect fearless


As per Doom Rider - see below, a Chaos lord - Night lords Legion if you wish, who makes raptors troop choices if he is leading the army, and also confers hit and run USR.


Word Bearers character-
makes icons better, maybe demons can deep strike under the influence of the mark a further 6" away from it. Proposed rules- Dark Apostle ( fallen chaplain) on a demonic mount (non denominational, like a black whispy horse that looks like its made out of smoke, or something), special crozius Arcanum, makes it easier to get daemons in (+1 to deployment rolls or something)

I would leave this one out.


Biker character- maybe on a bike that makes bikes troops or something
Proposed rules- on a demonic bike with a giant speaker system on it, gives the squad he’s with outflank
If he outflanks, when he comes on he triggers a pre-programed sound in the speaker that forces all enemy infantry not in vehicles, fearless, or in combat, have to take a leadership test or run, if double 1’s are rolled that unit does not run, and takes a round of shooting at the closest unit (friend or foe)

This is easy, bring back Doom Rider, and have his bike fitted with a twin linked melta gun, and he confers skilled rider to all bikers, and allows them to be taken as troop choices.


Chaos razorback- same as Space Marines
but the options are TL-heavy flamer for 25 pts, reaper autocannon for 20 pts, TL lascannon- 40 pts, with upgrades for chaos rhino


Instead of a Razorback, give the Chaos Marines their own drop pods, such as those Forgeworld make.


Also allow Obliterators to take marks of Chaos at the normal cost.

I think these changes would bring the current Chaos Space Marine codex in to line with the Space Marines codex, though not as powerful as the Space wolves or Blood Angels codexies.