Legal Tactics That Make You Want To Hurt Your Opponent

[Mike Dunford]

This is a thread for discussing the cheesiest of the cheese - little tricks and tactics that are absolutely and completely legal by the rules, but are still completely unfair and unsportsmanlike.

For example:
Playing old-school metal terminators on small bases in order to make it harder for horde army opponents to get enough models into combat to kill them.

[gwensdad]

I know someone who keeps them on those bases because then he can play original Space Hulk with them. Any rebasing means he can't play it anymore.

[Mike Dunford]

I know someone who keeps them on those bases because then he can play original Space Hulk with them. Any rebasing means he can't play it anymore.

Entirely possible. I brought that particular example up because my ork horde army and I got to play in an RTT against someone who was very open, honest, and smug about how smart it was to play small base termies instead of medium based ones.

[BuFFo]

There is nothing wrong with playing models with the bases supplied with them.

If your opponent has normal based Termies, deal.

I don't find any legal tactics 'cheesy' because any legal tactic is, um, legal. I never down grade my opponent's wins by calling him cheesy. I just adapt and over come like a real general.

[Legionary]

Wound allocation abuse.

[Rookie1]

I'm wondering on which base I have to put my orc warboss on a bike.
The normal warboss on foot has a 40mm base.
A normal bike has a bike base.

The warboss on bike gets which base?

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Entirely possible. I brought that particular example up because my ork horde army and I got to play in an RTT against someone who was very open, honest, and smug about how smart it was to play small base termies instead of medium based ones.

I have no intention of upgrading all my figures everytime GW pushes its scale-creep agenda in order to increase sales, thank you very much.

[Cryl]

Surrounding a vehicle with models to stop the transported unit getting out when it's destroyed is annoying but fair enough if you've got 30 orks around a rhino what feels wrong (although is totally legal and hence fine to do) is placing 4 marines exactly 2" apart to "block" all 3 doors and hence kill the squad inside.

Hey those are the rules but it just feels wrong to me, 10 guys might not push their way out past 30 orks battering their buring vehicle but some of those ten surely could make it past one model holding each door closed?

[krispy]

the rules say something along the lines with "models shall be on the bases supplied" i have 30 of the old lead terminators and i am not thinking about rebasing them - its what they came with and hence 100% ok in my book.


This is a thread for discussing the cheesiest of the cheese - little tricks and tactics that are absolutely and completely legal by the rules, but are still completely unfair and unsportsmanlike.

For example:
Playing old-school metal terminators on small bases in order to make it harder for horde army opponents to get enough models into combat to kill them.

[Mike Dunford]

There is nothing wrong with playing models with the bases supplied with them.

If your opponent has normal based Termies, deal.

I don't find any legal tactics 'cheesy' because any legal tactic is, um, legal. I never down grade my opponent's wins by calling him cheesy. I just adapt and over come like a real general.

Cheesy might have been the wrong word, and I certainly wasn't trying to denigrate my opponent's tactical abilities. He's clearly a very smart, very cunning player. His victory was the product of careful planning, a meticulous grasp of the implications of the rules, and good execution on his part. He was very careful to use the basing of the termies to his best advantage, and it worked well for him.

I also have a great respect for the guy's ability to explain the advantages and disadvantages of the small base for termies while playing - he freely explained everything, right down to the fact that he'd use his plastic 40mm-based termies if he was playing shootie termies, but it's better to use 25mm-based ones if possible in the assault squads. He even had enough of a command of the history of the game to note that the termies actually cost 42 points under the 3rd edition codex when they all came on small bases.

I most definitely do not have any grounds to complain about his skill, and any victory that uses legal tactics is a completely legitimate victory. But I wasn't trying to complain about any of that when I wrote the first post. I was talking about something quite different - sportsmanship.

EDIT:
After looking at a couple of the posts that went up while I was writing this, I should add that I would have had much, much less problem with the metal terminators had virtually all of the rest of the army not been new plastic figures.

[Levitas]

I have to say wound allocation too. Nobs and Nob bikers are just a groan to play. The Ork dex is already strong without green skinned players pulling out more "cheap" tricks.

On the bases thing. I saw a guy in a tournament using crushers on smaller bases to minimize deepstrike mishaps. Not cool.

[ZenPaladin]

One of the things I particularly dislike is stacking the unit so that the independant character/srgt wont get into combat.

It can be a smart move. In that it can let you stay in combat on your turn and then whipe them out on their own. But It really seems to go against the spirit of the game to me. They want you to get those guys stuck in they more or less say so.

I especialy hate it when I have my own indpendant charcter and I can't have my climactic confrontation between heros.

[Denzark]

flamestorm cannons on the Redeemer. My berzerkers have just hacked their bloody way acroos the table. they have killed that Hestan pillock and his accompanying Thunder Hammer Terminators. All of a sudden a S6 AP3 no cover save template does in a one-er what everything else has failed to do.

Its legal but its a total baastard.

[40kGamer]

The wound allocation really annoys me. It is such a gimmick!

I must be too much of a ‘spirit of the game’ person. I have my bikes mounted on oversized 40mm pill bases that I made before the little 25mm pills came out. The GW ones are way too small in my opinion so I still make my own 40mm ones! I like to heavily model my bases into mini-dioramas! My captain on a bike is actually on a 60mm round base. In my mind the bigger the base the better - You can really make things look cool!

[Rapture]

I don't know why everyone is so defensive of the little base guy obviously going out of his way to create an advantage for himself. Just because he has been playing long enough to own terminators supplied with small bases doesn't mean it isn't lame for him to use them when other people don't. That would be like someone modeling their tanks will all of the guns hanging off of the front so they could shoot further. It is lame and should be frowned upon.

Should he change his bases? No. Should the loser who modifies his weapons to shoot further not be allowed to use them? No. Is it stupid and lame to think up ways to get silly advantages in a game of toy soldiers? Yes.

[Norseman]

There are disadvantages to the small bases too...ei When exiting a LandRaider you actually get an extra 15mm of charge distance as RAW. Its not much but a 1/2" is the difference of getting in or not sometimes. Also it also extends the length of blocking a 5 man unit can do. 325mm vs 400mm that's a 3 " difference. The difference between available guys able to attack because of base size is not really a big deal, except maybe vs. characters With the fact you can get guys 2" from the guys in base to base makes it negligible.

[Drew da Destroya]

I'll throw my vote in for Wound Allocation Cheese. I avoid it when kitting out my nob bikers. Aside from being cheesy, it also slows the game down with too much record-keeping.

On the base issue, it really depends on why the player is doing it. I have a friend who has the old school small base terminators, and uses them. He's not trying to get an advantage out of them, they're just the models he happens to own.

[Skragger]

Ramming things with Valks, nuff said. It silly and doesn't even make logical sense. Yes! Your airplane just rammed a tank and flew away!

[The Green Git]

Sideways driving Rhino walls.

[Aldramelech]

Does my opponent Maliciously being in possession of an Ork army count?

[Da Blak Gobbo]

I would definitely agree on the surrounding of vehicles and killing the passengers with no where to go. Just doesn't seem right to me...

[Alqualonde]

Ramming things with Valks, nuff said. It silly and doesn't even make logical sense. Yes! Your airplane just rammed a tank and flew away!

Don't have my codex in front of me but I am pretty sure that a Valkyrie is not a tank and therefore cannot ram

[Duke]

I have a few things:

- I really don't like the "surrounding of the transport," thing... Especially when done by 5 models.

- I play an opponent who is a great friend and a good player, he is s stickler about the order of moving units
i.e. you cannot deploy the marines, move the rhino then go back to the tactical squad you dumped and move them. Techinically you have to deploy, then move the squad, then go back and move the Rhino. Its not cheese, and it is a rule... But its just something that he gets me on and makes me not be able to move a unit.

- I absolutley cannot stand wound allocation, it is so cheesy and slows the game down... It also ruins units that have half power weapons and half regular weapons (like my Vet Assault Squads). I just think its stupid how it works out. 5 power weapon wounds and 4 regular wounds makes one dead marine in a combat squad, lame!

Duke

[TSINI]

- I absolutley cannot stand wound allocation, it is so cheesy and slows the game down... It also ruins units that have half power weapons and half regular weapons (like my Vet Assault Squads). I just think its stupid how it works out. 5 power weapon wounds and 4 regular wounds makes one dead marine in a combat squad, lame!

Duke

although i'm with you on the wound allocation system being annoying, i'm sure that 5 power weapon wounds and 4 regular wounds would result in at least 3 marine deaths from a combat squad.

with 9 wounds, on 5 marines, you will only be able to allocate 2 wounds per marine, therefore it would look like this

P=power weapon wounds, N=normal wounds

1 2 3 4 5
P P P N N
P P N N

[Drew da Destroya]

Ramming things with Valks, nuff said. It silly and doesn't even make logical sense. Yes! Your airplane just rammed a tank and flew away!

As far as I'm aware, a Valk can't ram... only Tanks can ram. Unless the Valk is a Fast Skimmer Tank?

[CaptainSinon]

All vehicles can ram - tanks get a bonus when doing so...

for me the nob biker cheese - and i play orks!

[MajorSoB]

There is nothing wrong with playing models with the bases supplied with them.

If your opponent has normal based Termies, deal.

I don't find any legal tactics 'cheesy' because any legal tactic is, um, legal. I never down grade my opponent's wins by calling him cheesy. I just adapt and over come like a real general.


the rules say something along the lines with "models shall be on the bases supplied" i have 30 of the old lead terminators and i am not thinking about rebasing them - its what they came with and hence 100% ok in my book..

IMHO its not so much the tactic that annoys me but the intent behind it. If you get a 12 year old player using small based termies he dug out of his older brother's closet, yes you deal with it, but when some tool takes the time to collect metal termies just so they can exploit an ambigious rule we have a problem. This is unfair just like last years 'ard Boyz Bloodcrusher list where the the player collected the old school bloodcrushers just so he could use the small bases exploit to help with his deepstriking. And just to crush your attempt at the envy arguement, I own a metal deathwing army (50 plus strong) that was rebased with the larger termie bases. I guess I am just a better player since I feel I dont need gimmicks to gain a win...:D

Besides using small bases inst a tactic its a rules exploit.

Tactics are would allocation which can be annoying as well as sideways rhino walls, skyleaping swooping hawks etc.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

- I play an opponent who is a great friend and a good player, he is s stickler about the order of moving units
i.e. you cannot deploy the marines, move the rhino then go back to the tactical squad you dumped and move them. Techinically you have to deploy, then move the squad, then go back and move the Rhino. Its not cheese, and it is a rule... But its just something that he gets me on and makes me not be able to move a unit.


With friends like that, who needs wives?

[Nabterayl]

All vehicles can ram - tanks get a bonus when doing so...

Not true. All vehicles can be rammed, and tanks get a bonus to the Strength of the hit inflicted whether ramming or rammed. But only tanks can ram, per 68 and 69.

[BlacknightIII]

If one model can be seen then the whole squad can be shot.
Thats not true LoS at all!
Wound allocation doesnt bug me much since theres not a lot of ork players where i play.
Just lots of marines who shout oh i can see your guardsmans hand across the field behind the building i can shoot at the whole squad!

[DevilUknow]

I don't know how much an IG guy can complain about loose LOS rules for shooting.

just sayin...

[BlacknightIII]

The only time that really happens to me now is when im trying to keep a squad hidden behind a building or if im trying to hold an objective.

As an ex space marine player i still have nightmares when one marine was visiable and a chaos obliterator squad would lay plasma fire into my ten man squad.

Playing guard it doesnt sting as much losing troops but when 8 marines die cuz one idiot couldnt hide behind a building properly hurts quite a bit.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm pretty sure the Emergency Disembarkation rules in the BRB counter the "low model counter door block" tactic while the "30 Boyz door block" tactic is still valid.

As to Wound Allocation, the rules for complex multi-wound units are the biggest waste of page space in the BRB. I prefer previous edition's wound allocation rules that at least made some sense while remaining easy to use: roll saves for the group and remove whole models. Simple, easy, and none of this needing to wound 11 times just to remove one Nob monstrosity we have now.

One abusive loophole I've found that I'm actually reluctant to use since I enjoy running a Tri-Raider list is that Machine Spirit rules for a Land Raider are worded such that you can still fire 1 weapon after popping smoke. Seems trivial, yet with Grey Knight Land Raiders, I can move 12", pop smoke, fire a weapon, and then any penetrating hits I would receive in the following round would get reduced to glancing hits. Kind of makes Rail guns and Lances useless if you use you cover right while rushing into assault range.

SJ

[Shas'O D'Narb]

Suicidal Ethereals.

Ethereals, as non-battlefield leaders of the Tau, suiciding them just to gain preferred enemy is about the unfluffiest thing a Tau player can do.

[eldargal]

Re terminators on small bases, two of my brothers have full First Companies on beautifully textured and painted old style bases, which would be a crime to remove. To avoid this problem in our group they keep their terminators further apart and tell their opponent to assume there is a 40mm base under them. It seems to work.

[Thirteen]

I'm pretty sure the Emergency Disembarkation rules in the BRB counter the "low model counter door block" tactic while the "30 Boyz door block" tactic is still valid.
SJ

I was just about to make that point. I really like the emergency disembarkation rule especially playing eldar. I cannot count the number of times where I've seen my opponent run a unit up to the back of my wave serpent blocking the door then pour shots into the serpent until its wrecked and they tell me that my banshees inside are wiped out.

To which I reply "Oh really? That's not what the rules say"

I've actually gotten to the point where I've bookmarked page 67 in my rule book because I usually have to point out to my opponent that as a matter of fact they have just set me up for a quite good banshee assault next turn.

I personally really dislike the whole use the model on the base it was supplied with rule, I understand it's purpose, especially in scenarios like the one that Eldargal just described but I'm the kind of person who likes hard and fast rules with tight interpretations and I feel that models should be prescribed a specific base size. I hate seeing Daemon Princes on 40mm bases, just for that reason.

[Commissar Lewis]

Personally I hate the Tau Crisis " pop out from behind building, shoot, and hide again" jetpack thing. Legal, yes. Also a bit unsportsmanlike. Not much, just slightly.

And what is the wound allocation loophole the Nob bikers use? I've heard it referenced numerous times but I still don't know what it is.

That said, I also think the wound allocation rules are a bit arbitrary and bullbusting.

[thehod]

Wound allocation abuse is the one that annoys me the most.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

This is a thread for discussing the cheesiest of the cheese - little tricks and tactics that are absolutely and completely legal by the rules, but are still completely unfair and unsportsmanlike.

For example:
Playing old-school metal terminators on small bases in order to make it harder for horde army opponents to get enough models into combat to kill them. My most annoying one is how horde armies I encounter will line a worthless unit on the board in order to screen outflankers or other advancing troops.

At first this doesn't seem so annoying, but when you fight 120 Without Number Gaunts in Planetstrike and lose an epic battle because the other player just put his models in rings around the objectives in the last turn is a little rough.

One tactic that I use that I know people hate is wound allocation and using it to stack brutal wounds on one or two unique models. Yields some fun visuals, though ("That poor sod just caught 4 plasma rounds in the face!")

[Nabterayl]

And what is the wound allocation loophole the Nob bikers use? I've heard it referenced numerous times but I still don't know what it is.

The key to nob biker wound allocation is to remember that you always kill off as many whole models in identical-group buckets as possible. Quick example:

You have five nobz, all of whom are identical (i.e., same statline, same special rules, same wargear - it's that last one that's going to turn out to be important). You take five wounds. You allocate one wound to each nob. You roll five saves. You fail two saves. Because all the nobz are identical, one nob dies - it doesn't matter that each nob was only assigned one wound.

Now give each of those nobz a different piece of wargear. One gets a bosspole, another gets a kombi-skorcha, a third gets a power klaw, maybe one even gets an ammo grot. You now have five non-identical nobz. You take five wounds. You allocate one wound to each nob. Because no nobz are identical now, each is its own one-model bucket, and you have five sets of saves to roll. The guy with the bosspole fails his save, and the guy with the kombi-skorcha fails his. You have still failed two saves, but now you have two wounded nobz, not one dead one.

That's the wound allocation "trick."

This works for any unit that can give wargear to individual models, though the mathematical benefit is greatly enhanced if the models have more than one wound apiece (and, of course, you do have to shell out for the wargear to make your models non-identical). But nobz are particularly irritating to people because they are multi-wound models, and T4 to begin with.

Now put those same nobz on warbikes, giving them T4(5).

Now give their squad a painboy, so they have FNP.

Now give them cybork bodies, giving them a 5+ invulnerable.

You now have a unit with the benefits of wound allocation described above, and a 4+ cover save, and a 4+ armor save, and a 5+ invulnerable save, and Feel No Pain, with options for re-rollable Morale tests, and some very powerful assault weaponry.