Multiple Leadership values in a unit

[chipstar1]

Specifically, the question is about Wolf Guard joining a unit of Grey Hunters, however the overall rule could apply to many units.

Currently, friends and I have played where Morale checks are taken against the majority leadership of a unit. IE, 10 Grey Hunters with leadership 8, joined by a WG of leadership 9, would use 8. However, I've been reading over the rules and I cannot find how this is justified. My friend who is our defacto rules guide (because of his play experience) holds that it is always "majority" leadership.

My case:
Page 8, under Leadership Tests:
"If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."

Page 43, Morale:
"Morale checks are a specific kind of Leadership test. "

Further, under morale checks on page 43, I see no mention of using majority leadership, using the lowest value, or highest value. It seems to me that because a Morale check is a Leadership check (square is a rectangle, etc...), it should fall back to "a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."

Thus, when a WG joins a unit of Grey Hunters, the pack's leadership value would be 9 for the case of all Leadership checks, including Morale.

Am I missing something here? I've checked the 5th edition book as carefully as I can and don't see any reason that a unit would use the lower/majority leadership value for morale checks. If I'm mistaken, I'd love to know. This is turning into a heated debate, and a concise ruling would be greatly appreciated.

[TSINI]

Characters lead their troops, more experienced troops lead the less experienced soldiers.

you always use the highest leadership in the squad, as you've quoted the rulebook as saying.

am i missing a descrepancy in the rules that you are trying to highlight?

[chipstar1]

No discrepancy; I agree that characters/experienced troops like WG should be leading the less, therefor (and backed up by the rules), you would use the highest leadership value for morale checks. He is just so adamant and sure that its majority, despite no clear evidence in the rules that I find, that I'm trying to get a 3rd party ruling (this forum) to ease tension and confirm that I am reading the rules correctly here.

[The Hivemind]

Well you've found your answer in the rulebook. Show him the page. He can be as sure as he likes about a rule, but If he's wrong he's wrong. Play it the right way and if he doesn't like it, don't play him.

[Tynskel]

Essentially, because the morale rules do not stipulate how they differ from the simpler rule, Ld, the test is always are rolled on highest value--- that's how the test is written.

There are only 3 exceptions: 1) Psykers roll Ld checks based upon their own Ld value (p50), 2) there is one apocalypse formation with Lictors n' Genestealers that specifically state use lowest leadership for checks. 3) Pariah Rule--- Ld is 7 unless otherwise less.

[Necron_Lord]

Leadership tests aren't majority. SM units with sergeants have Ld 9 for their tests (unless the sergeant dies that is) and there is no other IC attached to the unit.

If you're thinking about majority (like the majority I for sweeping advance) or T when rolling to wound against mixed units, that doesn't apply to leadership except for the exceptions mentioned above (pyschic tests or some other special rule mentioned in a codex like pariahs).

[DarkLink]

You've found the rule that states that you use the highest Ld in a squad. Now the burden of proof is on your friend. It doesn't matter what he "remembers", if he can't show you the rule, he's wrong.

Just to save you time, he is, in fact, wrong.

[SeattleDV8]

Essentially, because the morale rules do not stipulate how they differ from the simpler rule, Ld, the test is always are rolled on highest value--- that's how the test is written.

There are only 3 exceptions: 1) Psykers roll Ld checks based upon their own Ld value (p50), 2) there is one apocalypse formation with Lictors n' Genestealers that specifically state use lowest leadership for checks. 3) Pariah Rule--- Ld is 7 unless otherwise less.

well yes you are correct BRB pg. 8 "....always use the one with the highest Ld value."
As to only 3 exceptions...lol Dark Angels Rites of Battle all of the models use the HQ's Ld of 10.
Ork's always (even psychic tests) use the mobs size (10 max) and there are more .

[Mal]

There are buckets full of exceptions, but thats not whats being asked.

BRB p.8
"If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."

Another little ruling for your pleasure, unless the Errata and/or codex has a rule saying different you use the rule as written in the BRB.

So unless your friend can find a rule in the errata or codeci (there certinally isn't a counter in the BRB), then you get to use the highest leadership value. (All the exceptions fall into the errata/codeci section, so everything is neatly covered).