Dark Eldar rules, what do you remember?

[isotope99]

At BigRed's request here is a collection of all the dark eldar related tidbits I was able to see/overhear. I didn't see all the codex pages they brought (only a small sample), but hopefully between us we can fill in the blanks. Please feel free to add to the list below or correct me.

Models confirmed:

Warriors (plastic)
Wyches (plastic)
Raider (Plastic)
Reavers (plastic)
Archon (metal)
Lelith (metal)
Incubi (metal)


No sign yet of:

Ravager
Helions
Mandrakes
anything else


Ravager/Raider

Fast, skimmer, open-topped (no surprise there)

Raider AV 10 10 10
Ravager AV 11 11 10

Ravager armed with three dark lances (seems to be standard, no idea about upgrades)
Able to fire all three weapons at cruising speed (12"?)

Reavers (don't know if these are troops or fast attack? My guess is they stay fast)

+1T, but only armour save 5+ (rather than the Eldar version that gives 3+)
36" turbo boost (so should be no objective you can't contest on the final turn)

They're armed with a splinter rifle but their main attack seems to be their blades (mono-something vanes). These had a fairly lengthy description and I can't remember all of it but it basically seemed to function like that bomb the ork Deffkoptas can have in that you pass over/near a unit and instead of charging it you inflict hits as you pass so the enemy can't immediately strike back. Presumably you can use this to soften the enemy up before engaging them with wyches etc.

There were some extra upgrades to increase the strength of the hits, inflict more of them etc.

Wyches (troops as standard I think)

Upgradable weapons that provide bonuses to the unit, or reduce the enemy's stats (didn't see the rules on these?)

Archon(didn't see any of his wargear)
WS/BS: 7 S/T/W: 3 I: 7 A: 3or4? Ld: 9 or 10? Save: 5+
Phil Kelly said that the cube he's carrying on the front of the codex and one of the models doubles his strength if he can kill an independent character or monstrous creature. (Instant death versus any strength 6+ weapon :()

Incubi/Warriors (didn't see these pages, I think the Incubi might be moving to elites from HQ to fill the Wyches' slot)

Mandrakes (The glowing yellow guys on the cover, so I would expect there to be models but can't confirm)

They strike from the shadows and get more powerful after they've tasted blood (not sure if this is just fluff or if it will be represented by some special rules).

That's pretty much all I have. So far the glass cannon theme is well intact, the prospect of facing a squad of long fangs able to nobble two vehicles per turn is pretty terrifying.

I don't think we can tell what their strengths are going to be yet but I expect lots of reserves, wyches assaulting out of their open-topped raiders and super fast reavers providing cover saves for the vehicles and contesting objectives late.

Over to you guys, show no mercy but do take prisoners:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/photopost/data/572/de_codex_cover.jpg

[isotope99]

Almost forgot, Harlequins are in.

Didn't see any new types, just the Shadowseer and Death Jester, but maybe they are on a page that wasn't available.

With the shadowseer in, my guess is that they won't be allowed to ride in the raiders, they are after all pretty independent.

[isotope99]

Credit to Gren Acid, pulled this from the picture thread:


So I was talking with Phill for a while and this is what I know:

Mandreaks are shadow bit chaos thing that eats souls and glow green(you on cover)
New character former DE queen..and Vects wive....after he dump her, she started planning revange on him.

This is about rules ect.
Power from Pain- After destroying non-vehicle unit, DE gets on winners pain token.
One token on unit and DE have FnP
2 on and FC
3 on and fearless
Tokens are cumulative and rule army wide.

Reavers inflicts impact hits on units they fly trough. D3 S3 for each bike, with some options to improve.
Incubi are very simmilar to aspect warriors; exarch witch special powers and wepons....(i recall one with Preffered enemy).
Wyches have 3 diffrent wych weapons.....look nice.
Archon have new retinue of some nasty bodyguards, incubi ale elite mercenaries now.
Ravager can shoot al three lances on cruising speed.

[DrLove42]

Harlequins are identical to their craftworld eldar...smae statlines, wargear and points

Mandrakes have some kind of shooting attack that gets stronger with every kill they make

3 Brand new units, never before seen in DE codex

Incubi are hard. And I meant HARD. Yes they're only T3, S3, with a 3+ save, but their (power) weapons add +1 to strength and 2 attacks basic. Their squad leader (WS5, 3 Attacks) has a weapon that either gives him +2 attacks or +2 S. Also he has a power that him, and any member of the squad that rolls a 6 to hit gets another attack add infinitium.

Archon is WS 7 BS 7, but doesn't have full wargear wardrobe like in last codex (least not that I saw)

Didn't read much of the fluff at the beginning, but theres a big story with DE and Tau. And then a story about how after Iyanden defeat the Nids they're nearly wiped out by an Ork incursion. They keep waking more and more wraith constructs until the DE come and rescue them because "they're amused by the Eldars necromantic games"

[Spy_Smasher]

Harlequins at the same cost as in the existing Eldar book? Interesting. I don't think a lot of us were expecting that.

[DrLove42]

The guy who wrote it was the one i asked and he said that the higher up bosses were very insistant they had to be the same

[Arhra]

Thanks for the news guys.

I really hope the Shadowfield makes the cut, it softens the pain of having toughness 3.

[Anaximander]

Warriors - same str, T and BS as before. Armed with splinter rifle. Couldn't find stats on splinter rifle - anyone know?

[The Madman]

Thanks for the news guys.

I really hope the Shadowfield makes the cut, it softens the pain of having toughness 3.

someone asked that while i was there, its still in and from what he said, it's still the same.

[Hokiecow]

No word on Talos or Hemi's? I'm hoping one of these guys will have some major anti-psyker ability.

[DarkLink]

They keep waking more and more wraith constructs until the DE come and rescue them because "they're amused by the Eldars necromantic games"

Heh, that's pretty awesome

[whitewolfmxc]

lol......every time something new comes up , people immediate turn to SW and say they will suck when "insert SW unit / rule name" gets em , serious guys............lay off the hate lol

[RocketRollRebel]

Heh, that's pretty awesome

ditto. I got a nice chuckle from that one. I can't stop being excited for this book. After about 5 years I'm ready to put my IG aside for a bit and try something new and I think this is a perfect opportunity :D

[Arhra]

someone asked that while i was there, its still in and from what he said, it's still the same.

Awesome. In a day filled with great news, that's the one that got me most excited. Cannot wait to hold the Codex in my hands. :)

[abadon58]

seems longer than 12 years since 4th edition came out with the DE, I don't count the minor codex update fron 2002.I may be missing something but Harlequins don;t seem as good as Wyches who have the 3+ inv in combat. Glad to see the fast aspect is back like the skimmer moving 12" and fire all weapons just hope the Lance rule is not changed but I mostly liked the codex as it was and still winning 95% of games with them. Only unit never used is the Mandrakes as not worthwhile and Talos rarly in last few years as too slow. No mention of the webway still being in!! With 3,000 points already looks like I will have to get some new ones especialy the new Lelith, old one is nice but now shunted to Wych squad leader. Seems the Incubi have grown horns and lost the tormentor helm. Was hoping they would wait till 2011 when my Daemond would be done but guess something else to be put on hold to get back to my first army. Love it

[DrLove42]

Remembered something else!

Warriors have 4 statlines on their codex page. Like a Eldar aspect squad has 2, one for the unit, one for the exarch the DE warriors had 4. Can't remember any more than that, but suggests multiple upgrade units for a squad maybe?

[isotope99]

Hmmm. One of the displays in the case was titled Kabalite warriors. I assumed that this was just what they were calling them but maybe they have two different sorts with different profiles but the same model kit (like orks have slugga boyz, shoota boyz and 'ard boyz available to them).

My guess is that one lot will be WS/BS 3 like eldar guardians and the other WS/BS4 +1 Ld or something like that, but I didn't see that page either. Anyone know what the difference was between the profiles?

[eldargal]

From ArchonCryx at 40konline:

SO Games Day has passed, at last we get a first good look, and the view seems magnificent.

We seem to have a "dartboard Codex" at last - ie a codex where vurtually any combination of units will be some how competitive!

Ok, Archon can have a Blaster, (or a Blaster Pistol). Blasters are now 18" range and the Archons BS7 means you're hitting on a third of your 1's to hit!

SO expect it to hit!

The reavers get access to a Melta Blaster, ie it's a S8 Blaster with Lance and Melta specvial rules (yep, both).

Raiders are more expensive but freek me alive they actually have a whole *host* of upgrades that you want to use, all either 5 or 10pts extra.

The 2 I remember strongly is the one that gives you an extra 2D6" movement (thus the raiders can potentially move up to 36")
and thwe new "Extra Armour must always take upgrade for DE will be the 5++ invulnerable save (yes, for a vehicle) INVULNERABLE save, *not* cover

Let's see. New units. 2 new heavy support, one is a razorwing, the other completely new.

New transport - you can run Venoms now (6 capacity).

Warriors and wyches are troops. HOWEVER< you can also buy elite warriors and elite wyches (who have a fancy name that I forget). Elites has become very busy with the addition of Harlequins along with the new Incubi

Pain points are cool, Haemonculi have the ability to confer a free pain point on units they attach to. It is also one of the combat drug results.

We do lose the 12" assault option but since we gain 36" move units and transports, its little concern.

Dark Matter spam is gone with a more realistic allocation of heavy/special weapons mainly based on squad size. Similarly for reavers

Hellions are quite good now.

And Scourges are the real Dark Horse - they look like being a very popular choice for heavy support. Personally I love the idea of a haywire grenade launcher which should be a bit of fun!

Umm, there's two types of talos, a more or less familiar one and a less tough version that's cheaper.

Grotttesques have bulked out and are reminiscent of Ogryn stats.

That should further whet your appetite...

Yay Elite Warriors and Wyches!

[GrenAcid]

Sorry for posting my share in wrong topic.

But how ArchonCryx get that?? I saw whole dartboard codex and there was nothing like that in.
Wait for more.

[Master Bryss]

So there might still be a Talos? Excellent! I broke the till of my LGS to get one and I'm glad it shall endure more years of service. It probably won't be T7 anymore though...

[BuFFo]

seems longer than 12 years since 4th edition came out with the DE...

You meant 3rd edition I presume...

[Curk39]

The Venom is a vehicle from the Harlequin codex, it also carried 6 people, it appears to be made from a viper and some dark eldar sythe/spikes. I doubt it would be identical though.

[Strangleweb]

The only thing I have to add regards wyches:

Wyches have a 6+ armour save and a 4+ invulnerable save in combat

Their weapon options are:
-1A to enemy in combat
Hydra Gauntlets: +d6 attacks for 2 CCWS rather than +1A (Yes - really!)
or
Reroll failed hits and/or wounds - not sure if you choose or you get both

No idea on how much those things will cost. I hope Hydra Gauntlets are a leader upgrade rather than a squad option!

[Old_Paladin]

No idea on how much those things will cost. I hope Hydra Gauntlets are a leader upgrade rather than a squad option!

It could be a normal squad option; but listening to other info about upgrades/model packaging/etc., the wych weapons could very likely be like special weapons in other armies.
ie. a single wych may have (or replace weapons with) Hydra Gauntles, a single other wych may have a snare-net, up to two others may take razor-swords, etc (or similar combinations [based on models seen so far]).


*all of this is conjecture; neither a rumor nor rule.

[gannam]

Does anyone have any information on the new statline for dark lances? I had heard it would be different now

[GrenAcid]

The only thing I have to add regards wyches:

Wyches have a 6+ armour save and a 4+ invulnerable save in combat

Their weapon options are:
-1A to enemy in combat
Hydra Gauntlets: +d6 attacks for 2 CCWS rather than +1A (Yes - really!)
or
Reroll failed hits and/or wounds - not sure if you choose or you get both

No idea on how much those things will cost. I hope Hydra Gauntlets are a leader upgrade rather than a squad option!

I saw them on normal models so only DOOM is waiting for you......hahahahhaha....

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2234/wychhydragauntlet.jpg (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/wychhydragauntlet.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[BuFFo]

.....i am crying.... tears of joy..... :o

[DrLove42]

So a squad of 10 incubi with the leader throw out 31/33 attacks on the charge, getting an extra ttack for every 6 rolled

A squad of 10 Wyches could theoretically have as many as 70 attacks on the charge?

I love this army. Its amazing how quickly me calling all the BA and Wolves rules cheesy changes when its my models doing sickening things....

[eldargal]

The best bit is, by all accounts they will still require finesse and skill to use, unlike the marines which really don't (which isn't to say there aren't nuances to be exploited by skilled players).


Me too, Buffington. Except less tears, more bouncing around the room making squealy noises and having excited tingly feelings. Can't wait until pre-orders start.


.....i am crying.... tears of joy..... :o

[Mal]

The best bit is, by all accounts they will still require finesse and skill to use, unlike the marines which really don't (which isn't to say there aren't nuances to be exploited by skilled players).


Me too, Buffington. Except less tears, more bouncing around the room making squealy noises and having excited tingly feelings. Can't wait until pre-orders start.

I know that feeling all too well, I had been worried for the past few days that my DE would become broken... but that is becomming less and less of a concern for me with every passing day... I honestly don't kno how i'll make it to the release date!

Me wants it now! :D

[Nosmo75]

I heard from a GW blackshirt a couple of days before Games Day that we should look out for more monsters and creatures (possibly even monstrous creatures! =P) in the new codex, which makes me happy. ^-^

I think I also heard Phil Kelly say that all Splinter weaponry is Poison 4+. On top of that, the Splinter Cannon is Strength 6, AP 5, Assault 6. And Blaster Pistols will be an option for Sybarites and Succubi. =)

[BuFFo]

So a squad of 10 incubi with the leader throw out 31/33 attacks on the charge, getting an extra ttack for every 6 rolled

A squad of 10 Wyches could theoretically have as many as 70 attacks on the charge?

I love this army. Its amazing how quickly me calling all the BA and Wolves rules cheesy changes when its my models doing sickening things....

lol...

A squad of 10 incubi throws out MORE attacks than what you suggested in the 3rd ed codex NOW!

Welcome to the party!

[Drew da Destroya]

Based on today's GW blog post, I've got some speculation to throw into the mix:

Elite Warriors will be called Kaballite Warriors (although these may be the basic troops instead)

Elite Wyches will be called "Hekatarii" (nice Hecate reference), lead by a Hekatrix instead of Succubus.

Lelith won't use Combat Drugs - "armed with just two of the cult knives and no combat enhancers, we wanted to imply that she was so deadly that she needed none of those things".

Fluffwise, they're talking about Sub-Cults of Wyches, which have different weapons. Could be referring to different fighting styles of the gladiators, but I worry it's more of a reference to Khaine-worshipping cults. Then again, it'd make the Wyches an analogue for all of the Eldar Aspects, which is kinda funny.

[Drew da Destroya]

Does anyone have any information on the new statline for dark lances? I had heard it would be different now

Fritz at 40k online was heavily implying AP1 earlier today. Not sure how much weight that holds, though... he was making oblique references to having (or knowing someone who has) access to the codex.

[BuFFo]

Fluffwise, they're talking about Sub-Cults of Wyches, which have different weapons. Could be referring to different fighting styles of the gladiators, but I worry it's more of a reference to Khaine-worshipping cults. Then again, it'd make the Wyches an analogue for all of the Eldar Aspects, which is kinda funny.

As long as the fluff makes it SOUND cool, I don't care what cult follows what ideals.

Thank you for the update. Sounds pretty tits to me.

[GrenAcid]

So a squad of 10 incubi with the leader throw out 31/33 attacks on the charge, getting an extra ttack for every 6 rolled

A squad of 10 Wyches could theoretically have as many as 70 attacks on the charge?

I love this army. Its amazing how quickly me calling all the BA and Wolves rules cheesy changes when its my models doing sickening things....

Dude....I realy dont expect that you can buy them for all wyches, or its gonna be expensive(but in my dark heart I hope to take full boyz squad with my wyches and butcher them in two turns)
They not gonna be cheesy.....we talking about T3 Sv5 and AV 10 models.


Im excited about elit/troop variants of warriors/wyches....wanna know more.
Oh one more splinter cannon have no Str I think like rest of family just poison(wich is unfair...we should have some option to open AV10 without lance)

(sorry for spelling)

[DrLove42]

AP1 lances would be nice...but prob unlikely

This army is already a bit of a "so you're meched up are you? You have 15 transports on the board? How many are gonna make it to turn 2?"

[JonnyRoxtar]

the Splinter Cannon is Strength 6, AP 5, Assault 6. =)

:eek:

To paraphrase the Proclaimers "Guardsmen no moaaar, tyranids no moaaar eldar no moaaar orrrks no moaar"

[Nosmo75]

:eek:

To paraphrase the Proclaimers "Guardsmen no moaaar, tyranids no moaaar eldar no moaaar orrrks no moaar"

That's if I heard it right. ^^'

I'm fairly certain I did, but it was rather noisy and confusing in the NEC (same amount of people - one hall = sad times), and it was multiplied at the Dark Eldar stand. Sooooo many people... Dx

Edit: It is still possible of course for the Splinter Cannon to be streamlined with other Poisoned 4+ weapons and receive Strength X. GW has been doing a lot of streamlining in recent years, which, in my opinion is a good thing. =)

[DarkLink]

As long as the fluff makes it SOUND cool, I don't care what cult follows what ideals.

Thank you for the update. Sounds pretty tits to me.

I agree. I think having some ironic mirroring of culture between the Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar is appropriate.

[Drew da Destroya]

I agree. I think having some ironic mirroring of culture between the Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar is appropriate.

I'm all for some ironic Craftworld-Dark Eldar mirroring... hell, some of it was already there (Scorpion Incubi, Banshee Wyches, and Swooping Hawk Scourge). I just worry about it mirroring Dark Elves, honestly. I'm pretty sure the Witch Elves in fantasy worship Khaine... just don't want to see the same themes rehashed, I guess.

But, like Buffo says... if it sounds awesome, it will be.

[Old_Paladin]

I just worry about it mirroring Dark Elves, honestly. I'm pretty sure the Witch Elves in fantasy worship Khaine... just don't want to see the same themes rehashed, I guess.

You know that Khaine is already an Eldar God in 40k? So it's a little late to stop the fantasy Elvish similarities to the Eldar race.
The Eldar Avatar is actually properly called "The Avatar of Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody-handed God"

It would make sense that a group of people that fight and kill for the entertainment of others, might go over the deep-end and start to fight in the arena simply to see blood spill, and turn to the worship of a god of blood and murder.

[Hokiecow]

You know that Khaine is already an Eldar God in 40k? So it's a little late to stop the fantasy Elvish similarities to the Eldar race.
The Eldar Avatar is actually properly called "The Avatar of Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody-handed God"

It would make sense that a group of people that fight and kill for the entertainment of others, might go over the deep-end and start to fight in the arena simply to see blood spill, and turn to the worship of a god of blood and murder.

Makes you wonder if the DE fluff will discuss the DE's view on the Eldar Gods, at least those that are still around.

[Drew da Destroya]

You know that Khaine is already an Eldar God in 40k? So it's a little late to stop the fantasy Elvish similarities to the Eldar race.
The Eldar Avatar is actually properly called "The Avatar of Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody-handed God"

It would make sense that a group of people that fight and kill for the entertainment of others, might go over the deep-end and start to fight in the arena simply to see blood spill, and turn to the worship of a god of blood and murder.

I'm fully aware, yes. I'm just finding myself in the (admittedly untenable) position of not caring if most of the DE worship/pay tribute to/kinda like Khaine, but not wanting the Wyches to become a dedicated cult thereof. If they see him as a patron saint of the Arena or something, then that's cool... I just want the Gladiators to stay Gladiators, and not warrior-priests dedicated religiously to Khaine.

While the occasional "This kill is for Khaine!" is cool, I don't want them practicing his rituals and making ceremonial sacrifices before the great iron alter, etc. Sacrifices should only be to replenish their twisted soul, while providing amusement for onlookers!

Does that make more sense?

[wolflold]

Rules

Allows for Kabal, Wych Cult and Homunculus armies

All old units appear in this codex plus there are 3-5 new units

Army-wide special rules:
Night Vision - Acute Senses USR

Strength Through Pain – Most standard Dark Eldar Infantry units will have this rule, although some of the more out there ones will not. The unit gains an upgrade every time it wipes out an enemy unit (3 max). 1st Feel No Pain, 2nd Furious Charge, 3rd Fearless.

Combat Drugs – Supposedly features mostly on Wych Cult units. Roll once. All units with the Combat Drugs rule get the same benefit. One result confers a free pain point.

Weapons:

Splinter Rifle 24″ SX, AP5, Rapid Fire, Poisoned.

Shard Carbine 18″ SX, AP5, Assault 3, Poisoned.

Splinter Cannon 36″ SX, AP5, Assault 4, or Heavy 6 Poisoned.

Splinter Pods – an underslung weapon for the Hellions similar to the carbine

Blasters - Now 18″ range

- Some FOC slots are subject to change -

HQ
Archon
WS/BS: 7 S/T/W: 3 I: 7 A: 3or4? Ld: 9 or 10? Save: 5+
Can take a wargear item the effect of which is that if he kills an enemy MC or SC in close combat he doubles his Strength to 6. If he kills another one, he doubles his Strength to 10. Can have a Blaster, or Blaster Pistol.

Asdrubal Vect
Some have said he no longer rides a Raider, but I have also heard he does and his throne fits nicely in the spot where the sail goes on the new kit. This implies no new model. Personally, I think the new kit would look a little silly without the sail.

Haemonculus
May confer a free pain point on units they attach to.

Elites
Harlequins
Identical to the Codex: Eldar entry

Mandrakes
Have a shooting attack that gets stronger with every kill they make

Incubi
T3, S3, 2A 3+ sv
Incubus, Klavex
Klaives (?) – Power weapons that add +1S
Hand Flamers – As per Blood Angels. It is unclear if this is an option or a standard bit of kit.
Squad leader has WS5, A3 and can take Demiklaves, 2 smaller blades that either give him +2 attacks or +2S (both are Power Weapons). Also provides himself and his squad with the ability to roll another attack for each 6 to hit they roll. This is supposedly unlimited. Some talk of the squad leader conferring prefered enemy to his unit when fighting units with an independant or special character

Kabalite Trueborn
Possibly have the Dracon as an upgrade

Elite Wyches
Proper name unknown but possibly Hekatrix Bloodbrides or Syrens

Troops
Kabalite Warriors
Stats are the same. Armed with Splinter Rifle only. Sybarite

Wyches
Stats are the same. Retain 4+ dodge save in CC. Combat Drugs
Unit includes: Wych, Hekatrix, Hekatrix Bloodbride, Syren (all have different stats/options)
Wych weapons
- Shardnet reduces A of all enemies in B2B by 1.
- Hydra Gauntlets give +D6A for 2 CCW instead of +1
- A “chain-of-blades weapon” that gives +2A, and re-rolls to hit and to wound.

Fast Attack
Reaver Jetbikes
T4, 5+ save, can Turbo-boost 36″.
Reavers and Arena Champion
Armed with Splinter Rifles, monofilament blades and Combat Drugs
Can perform a “fly-by” attack on enemy units without becoming locked in close combat.
Have several upgrades to their monofilament blades that inflict different numbers of S3/4/6 hits on units when performing the fly by attack. One option causes Pinning.
The jetbike gives +1 sv and +1T
Possibly get a S6 (some say 8) melta-lance weapon

Beast Masters
Get more types of beasts

Heavy Support
Scourges
Can supposedly take Haywire Grenade Launchers

Ravager
Fast, skimmer, open-topped AV 11 11 10
Armed with 3 Dark Lances as standard and can fire all 3 at cruising speed

Grotesques
Apparently changed to Ogryn-sized creatures
There will still be human-sized Homunculus constructs, but they will have a different name

Talos
One version like the one we already know, and another weaker but cheaper version

Razorwing
Nothing else yet

Transports
Raider
Fast, skimmer, open-topped AV 10 10 10
Has upgrades for a 5+ invulnerable (not cover) save and another that gives an extra 2D6″ movement.

Venom
Transport capacity 6

[Drew da Destroya]

I wonder if the Razorwing will get a plastic kit. I don't think there's an official Forgeworld model for it yet... although it's a variant of the Raven Fighter, so maybe that counts.

I'm excited to hear there'll be multiple beast types. Adds a bit to an otherwise vanilla unit.

[Old_Paladin]

Just a quick update, from GW's info.
The little box that doubles the Archon's strength is called a Soul-trap.
He also has an option for a special melee weapon, called a Husk-blade (the bone-sword the model is holding); rules unknown so far.

[Mkvenner]

Just a quick update, from GW's info.
The little box that doubles the Archon's strength is called a Soul-trap.
He also has an option for a special melee weapon, called a Husk-blade (the bone-sword the model is holding); rules unknown so far.

The Huskblade is a PW that cause ID, heard it from a Frgt/10 on warseer and he is a credible source.

[Archon Charybdis]

The Huskblade is a PW that cause ID, heard it from a Frgt/10 on warseer and he is a credible source.

Between that and the Shadowfield supposedly being unchanged, the Archon living long enough and being able to actually kill an IC/MC suddely seems plausible.

[Keldain]

Okay, so for the sake of my sanity... I will explain for people new to the new Codex.

Kabalite Warriors = standard Warriors now with the added "Kabalite" prefix.

Kabalite Trueborn = elite Warriors.

Hekatrixes = elite Wyches

Hekatrix Bloodbride = elite Wych unit leader I believe.

Syren = new Succubus. (?)

[Mkvenner]

Between that and the Shadowfield supposedly being unchanged, the Archon living long enough and being able to actually kill an IC/MC suddely seems plausible.

Not to mention the Soul Trap doubles his strength if he kills a MC or IC in combat. That can be pretty nasty.


Question what makes that Kabalite Trueborn special?

[DarkLink]

Trueborn likely have a slight stat boost, but almost certainly have a bunch of cool wargear options.

[Mkvenner]

Trueborn likely have a slight stat boost, but almost certainly have a bunch of cool wargear options.

Well that alone makes me want to do Dark Eldar more. I plan to drop about $500 on them *******s. Those Reavers are too cool. Plus the Warriors give me a quarter chub. I can't wait to see the Mandrakes.

[BuFFo]

Not to mention the Soul Trap doubles his strength if he kills a MC or IC in combat. That can be pretty nasty.

I can already tell you that this ability is pretty worthless.

The whole reason for fielding an Archon/Archite is to kill enemy ICs/MCs, right? Well, why would you care about a stat boost AFTER you have killed your target?

Take it from me. I have been playing DE almost non stop for 12 years, and I can tell you that turn 1 - turn 2 your Archon makes a B-Line to his target, and kills him, and then he is left just moping around.

The reason the Archon was deadly was because he could take drugs BEFORE combat to boost his combat abilities. Now, if the Archon is so powerful that he can walk up to a Hive Tyrant and kill it AS IS without drug help, then who really cares about the strength boost?

It is just icing on the the cake, and nothing more.

[Mkvenner]

I care :( ..... I want the little bugger to crush Land Raiders at some point and see the disdain on my opponents face for not killing him sooner. However rare this chance may be haha.

[eldargal]

Oh I don't know, I think in larger games with more ICs and MCs you might easily have secondary targets which will be killed easier thanks to this. Not to mention you might not get to your chosen IC target before bumping into another one. I would have loved an option like this when ym Banshee's and Farseer got stuck in combat with Fabius Bile when they were trying to get to Ahriman.


I can already tell you that this ability is pretty worthless.

The whole reason for fielding an Archon/Archite is to kill enemy ICs/MCs, right? Well, why would you care about a stat boost AFTER you have killed your target?

Take it from me. I have been playing DE almost non stop for 12 years, and I can tell you that turn 1 - turn 2 your Archon makes a B-Line to his target, and kills him, and then he is left just moping around.

The reason the Archon was deadly was because he could take drugs BEFORE combat to boost his combat abilities. Now, if the Archon is so powerful that he can walk up to a Hive Tyrant and kill it AS IS without drug help, then who really cares about the strength boost?

It is just icing on the the cake, and nothing more.

[BuFFo]

I am more excited about the fact that the Archon can now carry a Meltagun/Blaster type weapon with his new BS of 7 and fire it at range 18".

This is FAR more useful/powerful than some strength doubling crap.

So now, yeah, the Archon can destroy landraiders and ICs just fine, with his new side arm that will never miss lol.

[Drew da Destroya]

Seriously... an Archon with a blaster is going to be great. And if it's Melta as well.... man. There's gonna be a lot of slagged vehicles on the table.

[GrenAcid]

Tottaly agree with BuFFo, but there is one most important thing everyones missed in this new rules extasy.... What is done with taking slaves?? Its dropped or still in? and Im sure it IS one of very important part of DE just like TSKF or WBB.

If dropped I`ll be using old rules to annoy my opponent....and for my presonal pleasure.(SoB slaves:D)

(sorry for spelling)

[Mal]

Tottaly agree with BuFFo, but there is one most important thing everyones missed in this new rules extasy.... What is done with taking slaves?? Its dropped or still in? and Im sure it IS one of very important part of DE just like TSKF or WBB.

If dropped I`ll be using old rules to annoy my opponent....and for my presonal pleasure.(SoB slaves:D)

(sorry for spelling)

Disturbing question... have you converted any SoB slave minis to hang on your raiders?

[GrenAcid]

No, Im using slave girls from vect pimp raider and have some from this shop:
http://bitspudlo.com/pl/categories/94-hfh-humans

[JonnyRoxtar]

I can already tell you that this ability is pretty worthless.



Not if youre playing against the Space Wolves. Especialy my space wolves. 14 figures all in Termie armour and 4 special characters. thats gonna hurt

[eldargal]

Special Charcters confirmed:
Asdrubael Vect
Lelith Hesperax
Urien Rakarth (I just found out Urien is one typo away from urine)
Drazhar
Decapitator
Duke Sliscus
Lady Malys (not No'akei, woe)
Baron Sathonyx

I'm so excited, GW have done a brilliant thing and designed the metal archon to be interchangeable with the plastic kits, which means I can slap a Wych head on it and I have myself a lady Archon! God, if this release doesn't shut up some of the GW haters nothing will.

[Porty1119]

Now, it's the Razorwing and Venom that have me excited!! :D
I think former flyers being converted into skimmers is a really cool direction. It gives the impression of a bit more combined-arms approach. IE being able to have IG heavy armor and infantry supported by airborne troops.

[GrenAcid]

Disturbing question... have you converted any SoB slave minis to hang on your raiders?

No, Im using SoB slave girls from Vect raider and will have some of them: http://bitspudlo.com/en/categories/94-hfh-humans?currency=EUR
Cant stop thinking all those barons/lady/ect are too close dark elves and our human status names....dont like it.


I'm so excited, GW have done a brilliant thing and designed the metal archon to be interchangeable with the plastic kits, which means I can slap a Wych head on it and I have myself a lady Archon! God, if this release doesn't shut up some of the GW haters nothing will.

Emm I think you forgot about boobies....or your Archon is flat.

[brains]

.


Emm I think you forgot about boobies....or your Archon is flat.

Or the their compressed by the armor. Although, that would be the one committee that I could see with enough hate and anger to be Dark Eldar

[Mal]

Boobies are not a huge problem for eldar, they then not to be overly exegarated like human females, so she could just be a smaller cup size, with the DE physique it'd be hard to tell the difference under the armour.

[DrLove42]

The Internet! The only place you can discuss the bra sizes of evil space pirate elves and not be considered overly wierd!

[Mal]

The Internet! The only place you can discuss the bra sizes of evil space pirate elves and not be considered overly wierd!

You mind if I add that to my weird and wonderful quotes collection?

[eldargal]

No, first thing I did when the new Archon pictures poppedup was examine the chest for female potential. I don't think I will even have to alter it, with a female head it will be quite obviously feminine as with a male it it is wuit obviously masculine. It is a very well designed torso in that regard.


No, Im using SoB slave girls from Vect raider and will have some of them: http://bitspudlo.com/en/categories/94-hfh-humans?currency=EUR
Cant stop thinking all those barons/lady/ect are too close dark elves and our human status names....dont like it.



Emm I think you forgot about boobies....or your Archon is flat.

[DrLove42]

You mind if I add that to my weird and wonderful quotes collection?

Not at all!


No, first thing I did when the new Archon pictures poppedup was examine the chest for female potential.

Thats the first thing you did? Shows some dedication to the cause!

[GrenAcid]

I hope theres gonna be female Archon and we all can sleep pacefully. As for Archon model usefullnes...emmm...it looks nothing like female...just take a look at female warriorsand bikers...there is somthing under that armour:D and I dont know why people think that elves(space/evil/ect) have smaller cup size..... and looking at Lelith minature I cant help myself from thinking she isnt less then D(although I love them all)

(sorry for spelling)

[Gotthammer]

No, first thing I did when the new Archon pictures poppedup was examine the chest for female potential. I don't think I will even have to alter it, with a female head it will be quite obviously feminine as with a male it it is wuit obviously masculine. It is a very well designed torso in that regard.

Heh, first thing I did too - I'm thinking the wytch head with the double topknots myself, and a pistol and a different sword. I'll probably swap the back spikes for the samurai style banners too.

[eldargal]

I disagree, I've seen a high res picture of the archon model and I think with a female head your eye will interpret the bulk of the upper torso armour in quite a feminine manner. In others words, it will look like an armoured female torso.:)
I think DE girls I've seen are more of a C, personally. No Devils Dumplings to lug around, lucky ho's.


I hope theres gonna be female Archon and we all can sleep pacefully. As for Archon model usefullnes...emmm...it looks nothing like female...just take a look at female warriorsand bikers...there is somthing under that armour:D and I dont know why people think that elves(space/evil/ect) have smaller cup size..... and looking at Lelith minature I cant help myself from thinking she isnt less then D(although I love them all)

(sorry for spelling)

Glad I'm not the only one.:) I think I will wait to decide which head until I have all the kits in my hands, I've not been able to find good pictures of the Reaver female heads yet for a start, and I've only seen two or three of the Warrior heads I think.


Heh, first thing I did too - I'm thinking the wytch head with the double topknots myself, and a pistol and a different sword. I'll probably swap the back spikes for the samurai style banners too.

[brains]

I think DE girls I've seen are more of a C, personally. No Devils Dumplings to lug around, lucky ho's.


Ever feel like we spend too much time on 40k? lol

[DarkLink]

I disagree, I've seen a high res picture of the archon model and I think with a female head your eye will interpret the bulk of the upper torso armour in quite a feminine manner. In others words, it will look like an armoured female torso.:)


Yeah, Eldar aren't exactly known for being top-heavy I don't think. Except for those helmets that are bigger than their torsos.

[isotope99]

Agreed, I don't see them as the DD Eldar and so the basic armour is most likely OK. On the other hand I am gomng to be using a little bit of greenstuff just to suggest some curves.

I'm going to draw the line at converting stiletto boots for my wyches though... ...maybe :p

[Archon]

The Internet! The only place you can discuss the bra sizes of evil space pirate elves and not be considered overly wierd!

Yes - I was thinking the same as I read the beginning of the breast-discussion in a DE thread.... strange..:eek:

PS: Hmm Kreuellagh ... has a bit more then C i guess

[Drew da Destroya]

PS: Hmm Kreuellagh ... has a bit more then C i guess

From what I hear, she has a "C(ut from the codex)" cup.

[BuFFo]

Time to green stuff some Quadruple Fs on my female Dark Eldar....

[eldargal]

Oh oh oh!

Lelith gets one extra attack for each point of WS she has above her opponents.

She is WS9.

For the first time I am actually tempted to use a special character outside large Apocalypse games.:rolleyes:

[Mal]

Is that confirmed for lelith? If it is I may just have to rethink my list into a wych cult...

[DrLove42]

Thats confirmed on the GW website with her advance order....

So shes WS9, 4A base, with 1 on the charge, 1 for 2 CC weapons?, and 1 for every WS over the enemy.

So she alone charges a 10 man marine squad and shes got 11 attacks. That ignore armour saves.....and I thought Zain Jar was harsh....

[Mal]

ohh shiny....

only problem is wyches are expensive... (ponits wise in comparision to warriors)... i'll have to wait until I actually have the new dex in my hands before I make any decisions... but me wants her...

hmm I suppose I could buy an archon and run her as a secondary hq.

[N0rdicNinja]

Thats confirmed on the GW website with her advance order....

So shes WS9, 4A base, with 1 on the charge, 1 for 2 CC weapons?, and 1 for every WS over the enemy.

So she alone charges a 10 man marine squad and shes got 11 attacks. That ignore armour saves.....and I thought Zain Jar was harsh....

But what of wounding? Is she just swinging in at S3? If so I laugh at her 11 attacks, does she at least have some sort of poison-esque ability?

[Drew da Destroya]

She has an option for an "Impaler", some kinda cool spear thing. Dunno what it does, though.

[Old_Paladin]

But what of wounding? Is she just swinging in at S3? If so I laugh at her 11 attacks, does she at least have some sort of poison-esque ability?

She also ignores armour saves; and not everything is a space marine or better. She blast her way through guard, sisters, tau, gaunts.
But in all likelyhood, as a character, I'm guessing strength 4.

[Drew da Destroya]

She was Strength 3 in the last codex, but had an Agonizer, so she wounded on a 4+ anyway. I could see her having poisoned weapons, but that's just a guess. With that many potential attacks, they may leave her S3 as a balancing factor. Still, sounds cool as ****.

[Old_Paladin]

With that many potential attacks, they may leave her S3 as a balancing factor.

True.
She might also be a dirt cheap character that only costs ~90 points, and needs some weaknesses.

[Mkvenner]

She is around 175 from what I had heard. All those attacks I am sure she can be buffed by pain tokens and combat drugs so I wouldnt fuss about the str3 haha.

[DarkLink]

And remember that 11 str 3 power weapon attacks on the charge kills ~4 Marines. That's better than a SM Captain with Relic Blade. And she's likely to come with a bunch of other special rules anyways.

[Underground Heretic]

Just nabbed this from Locephax in the new article's comments:

Archon 60 points base huskblade 35 points soultrap is about 20.
Basic warriors are 9 points and Raiders are 60 base.
Incubi are 22 points each
Vect 240 (dais +200)
Lelith 170
ancient haemonculus 80 normal one is like 65
ravager 105-120 I think
I'll post other stuff people want too, just ask.

[JonnyRoxtar]

Well if Lelith gets to choose her combat drugs ( I dont know if she can btw this is just a guess), then aim her at an IC and watch her strength double and suddenly shes capable of taking out tanks and.... welll everything really.

oh god I wish wraithlords came in squads now. Id love to see Lelith charge 3 and kill em all <3

[eldargal]

She doesn't do combat drugs at all, or so I understand. Being the greatest duellist/gladiatrix/etc in the galaxy she doesn't think she needs it.


Well if Lelith gets to choose her combat drugs ( I dont know if she can btw this is just a guess), then aim her at an IC and watch her strength double and suddenly shes capable of taking out tanks and.... welll everything really.

oh god I wish wraithlords came in squads now. Id love to see Lelith charge 3 and kill em all <3

[JonnyRoxtar]

Damn, still strength 6 on a charge into a squad of sentinals could see 3 dead sentinals, or war walkers.

[Mal]

Here is a question for you... she chrages a tank with a WS score of - does this mean she gets an additional 9 attacks? One for each point of WS she has above her opponent...

[N0rdicNinja]

Here is a question for you... she chrages a tank with a WS score of - does this mean she gets an additional 9 attacks? One for each point of WS she has above her opponent...

That sounds like something that would be specifically be mentioned in her rules text, which often does happen when close combat and vehicles are involved. If not, almost certainly will be FAQ'd later.

But as EldarGal mentioned, they specifically stated in an article that Lelith doesn't like to use any outside influences (i.e. Combat drugs)... which makes it sounds like she uses those daggers and that's it. If she's not at least S4 she better have something else going for her, cause those 11 attacks wont do much against the hordes of T4 players out there.

11 Attacks on the charge
7.37 of them will hit
2.43 will wound

That's usually 2 and sometimes 3 dead Marines on average, not 4. With her (assuming) T3 the Marines return attacks would probably be quite painful... especially against my Wolves if Counter-Attack procs... I think we're def still missing something, cause if what they've told us is all she has going for her then her fluff doesn't really hold merit. I hope she has poison or something, cause I want to fear her, she's my favorite of the DE special characters, but as of right now I would happily accept her charge and punish her for it.

[eldargal]

You wouldn't want to use Lelith unsupported against MEQ certainly, but stick her in with some Wyches with a raider and you will slice them up good and proper. Against T3s she will mince them up on her own, though anyone with any sense will keep her well supported.
Her hair counts as a Shardnet by the way, which reduces enemy units attacks by one, or so I understand. Not sure what her impaler does, but her agoniser gives her 4+ to wound regardless of S/T so I think it will be safe to assume more than 2 wounds per 7 hits against Marines. Throw in a squad of Wyches and I don't think even TH/SS terminators will like fighting her.

[N0rdicNinja]

That's a given, you should never have a special character walking around outside of a unit that compliments them. Do we know for sure she has an Agoniser? I didn't see that posted anywhere, I certainly hope so! XD

[eldargal]

Someone on Warseer said she had one, and she had one in the previous codex. So no it isn't confirmed yet, but I hope so.:p

Edit: Even if she is just S3, with Wyches backing her they are throwing out ridiculous numbers of dice.

[Nvs]

Can you expand on Drazhar any?

We know he has Phoenix Lord stats, basic demiklaives as weapons though? Think someone mentioned a rule where he can choose who to be in base to base contact with, but that seems quite limited in value without some other supporting rules to assist.

Feel like providing some fluff highlights for him too? Some mention of him really being Arhra?

Is he prohibitively expensive and of limited value like all the other phoenix lords?

[mirkins]

Ok, thanks for information

http://customresearchpapers.ws/term-paper.php

[DrLove42]

And shes a Wych so prolly comes with a 4+ invulnerable in CC, if they keep that from last codex (which i've heard they have)

Also heard that her hair counts as a whip blade or something like that, that reduces enemy in contact with her attacks by 1

[eldargal]

Lelith is just S3 afterall, but she isn't exceptionally expensive so it works out ok. Support her with Wyches and use her wisely and she won't meet much she can't kill. Also, that inv save in CC will save her from a fair chunk of counter attacks.

[N0rdicNinja]

Often times 1 is all it takes, anyone planning to pick up DE should probably get used to facing off against lots of Power Fists/Chain Fists/Eviscerators/Thunder Hammers/Power Claws, that's one advantage to knowing you're already striking last anyways. =P

But as long as the Agoniser ends up being true I will hold more respect for her, MCs are going to run in terror from her. XD And she'll actually be a threat to worry about. If not, and she's just packing S3, I would more likely dedicate all my attacks at her squad and worry about her later.

Scary thought... Lelith with a Husk Blade... XD

[Mkvenner]

Lelith is just S3 afterall, but she isn't exceptionally expensive so it works out ok. Support her with Wyches and use her wisely and she won't meet much she can't kill. Also, that inv save in CC will save her from a fair chunk of counter attacks.

Not to mention all you have to do is get her 2 pain points. You could easily get her one with a Haemonculi, from there just mince a small unit and boom. Str 4 haha. I am sure you could also figure a way to do it with a Webway Portal Combo.

[Archon]

Also heard that her hair counts as a whip blade or something like that, that reduces enemy in contact with her attacks by 1

Very cool - Dark Eldar Wych with Hair Kung Fu - so to call the Bride with RED hair!

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/reviews/ab3219/bride_with_white_hair.jpg

I think she´ll make a fine SCs and besides i have the old model still unpainted, i will paint her new incarnation faster and try her on the field. Normaly i don´t like to use SCs (the only one, i tried with the old DE Dex was Drazhar).

But if she is 170 points she´s too expencive, so she have to be really good.

[Mal]

I agree fully with that last part... if DE are anything like before you simply cannot afford to throw away a couple hundred points... its one of the main reasons sc's were never really big in old DE atmy builds...

It'll all depend on her potential power as to if she is actually going to be cost effective, also if she still allows for decent synergy with wych forces.

[Lordgimpet]

things to add,
I recall 2 characters really stood out for me, one is the special mandrake character, who is an IC killer, which deploys like sly marbo and can assault the turn he arrives!!!!! and he is STR 5, get prefer-enemy on a chosen IC and can cause instant death on a roll of 6 to wound, very nasty, unless your IC has eternal warrior

The other is some lady i think its Vects wife that gives her and her squad immunity to psychic and gives the army the ability to redeploy like eldrad, very handy.

(added) the stores here have 1 codex for us to read and I've seen some one put together a 2000pt list

[BuFFo]

The other is some lady that gives her and her squad immunity to psychic and gives the army the ability to redeploy like eldrad, very handy.

F@*king Broke!!!!

-drools-

[BuFFo]

Lelith is just S3 afterall, but she isn't exceptionally expensive so it works out ok. Support her with Wyches and use her wisely and she won't meet much she can't kill. Also, that inv save in CC will save her from a fair chunk of counter attacks.

Lelith sounds like garbage now. Wounding T4 models on 5's is pretty bad. Even with 10ish attacks, which she'll get against Marines normally, she'll only kill one or two marines on average. She does better than that NOW at 90 points!!!

Wounding on 5's is HUGE in GW games.

[eldargal]

Good if you are playing IG, Sisters, Tau, other Eldar etc, but yes I wouldn't take her against MEQ even if I took SCs. I admit to being a little dissapointed about that, but I wouldn't call her rubbish, just not a solid anti-MEQ choice. Of course, if everyone else in your group has Marines...:rolleyes: Of course, we don't know all her options yet so maybe there is some way of boosting her strength, but I'm not holding my breath.


Lelith sounds like garbage now. Wounding T4 models on 5's is pretty bad. Even with 10ish attacks, which she'll get against Marines normally, she'll only kill one or two marines on average. She does better than that NOW at 90 points!!!

Wounding on 5's is HUGE in GW games.

[Mal]

Im going to have to agree with buffo on this... if she doesn't have an anti-MEQ option then her use is highly limited and she'll have no place in a well rounded build due to the large percentage of MEQ armies out there. And thats before you look at her price.

She will either need something that gives her a Str boost right off the bat (like the old punisher) or will need some insanely good squad upgrade special rules to make her worthy of a place in a balanced list.

[eldargal]

And I still think having eight or so power weapon attacks and the ability to reduce enemy attacks by 1 will make her useful when combined with squad support. I've been slaughtering MEQ with S3 Banshees for years. Though admittedly they get a re-roll to wound with a Farseer...
Have her lead Incubi against TH/SS Terminators and watch the survivors drop down to 1A each.

[N0rdicNinja]

And I still think having eight or so power weapon attacks and the ability to reduce enemy attacks by 1 will make her useful when combined with squad support. I've been slaughtering MEQ with S3 Banshees for years. Though admittedly they get a re-roll to wound with a Farseer...
Have her lead Incubi against TH/SS Terminators and watch the survivors drop down to 1A each.

I almost hit reply without reading the rest of your post when you mentioned killing Marines with Banshees. XD Because I've never seen a Banshee squad used without Farseer support... EVER! There's a reason they're so good at it. =P

But really, there's no reason to take Lelith against MEQ if she's not packing a S4 upgrade or an Agoniser... which sucks since that's generally what most people will have to deal with. Yes she'll drop the attacks of those TH/SS Termi's down to 1 but on the charge she has an %80 chance to kill a single Termi (on average) and if she fails a single one of her own 3 ups she's toast, and how often do you see a TH/SS Termi squad that's not packing a decked out character?

She'll rape face against the other armies you mentioned, but against MEQ, while she's definitely not useless, do you really want to sink all those points on that kind of performance...? =\ Another squad of Wyches would probably be a better investment.

*crosses fingers for something in her final rules*

[eldargal]

I like the sound of Lady Malys.

Also, get Lelith two pain tokens and she is S4 from Furious Charge. Easiest way to do this would be to throw her in with another unit and go after some easy targets. All the same, put her with Incubi and it won't matter if she only kills one terminator, the Incubi will kill more and if there is a character it will lose him an attack too. Wip 'em out and you get Lelith halfway to 4S from Furious Charge. Its not ideal, but you want to be slaughtering marines anyway


Okay, well it seems like the cat's out of the bag with a lot of details anyways, so here's some more on special characters:

Asdrubael Vect with Raider (excluding bodyguard) costs 44 Fire warriors. And has preferred enemy all unit types and re-rolls to wound against all Eldar models (including Dark Eldar). It has 13 armour all round and 3 lances. He himself comes with "obsidian orbs" which inflict strength 10 AP 2 hits against leadership. Wounds inflicted restore his lost wounds.

Lady Malys allows the owning player to redeploy D3 units after deployment...including placing these units back into reserve. Confers immunity to psychic powers to any unit she joins. 4++.

Djinn Blade - power weapon allows owning wielder to make 2 extra CC attacks each turn, rolled seperately. If a double is rolled for the "to hit" roll these attacks hit the wielder instead.

Husk Blade - power weapon - inflicts instant death.

Can't remember the name - power weapon, any IC or MC HIT (not neccessarily wounded) by this weapon must take BOTH a toughness and a leadership test for EACH hit. If ANY of these tests is failed, that IC or MC may not attack this assault phase. (very scary) (Actually not a PW, tests on S and LD - EG)

The Duke - 2+ posion weapons, if he rolls a 5+ to wound, they also ignore armour. A single unit of either warriors or kabalite trueborn have their poison weapons upgraded to 3+. Re-rolls combat drug dice, rolls 2D6 for deciding deployment zones.

Lilith - pretty much been covered.

Drazhar - 23 Fire warriors. Phoenix Lord profile with Demiklaves, can be repositioned after assault moves, makes an additional attack for every successful save of 6. Has all the standard Klaivex special rules.

C-girl.

[DrLove42]

Vect costs 440pts? Without guard? Holy mother of god...he'd better be hard to be that...

[Old_Paladin]

I don't know why Lilith's cost/effectiveness is only being costed to either grunt standard marines (a poor target for her to go after) or TH/SS termies (the most broken-costed unit in the game).

There are much better targets for her.
Things like Long Fangs (who's heavy weapon loadouts will be very dangerous to Dark Eldar armies); she'll likely destroy the unit. Or Sanguinary Guard, who have to invuln. save.
There are plenty more expensive, but exploitable targets: Space Marine honour guard, command retinues, sternguard.

TH/SS termies need to be dealt with in the conventional manner, weight of hits (not expensive special caracters). Pound them with some splinter cannon/carbine/pod shots, followed by a fly over attack of jetbikes.

[BuFFo]

So now I have to work on getting Lelith two pain tokens so she can only be half as good as she is now?

Ugh...

And as much as I appreciate the fact that she is good against non MEQ, well, in a perfect world all my opponents would not be MEQ, but reality is everyone and their cat in my area jumped the SW and BA bandwagons and it is annoying not being to field Lelith anymore against these armies.

Hi, I am Lelith. Hi, I am Mephiston. Let the 6+ to wounds begin!!


I don't know why Lilith's cost/effectiveness is only being costed to either grunt standard marines (a poor target for her to go after) or TH/SS termies (the most broken-costed unit in the game).

There are much better targets for her.
Things like Long Fangs (who's heavy weapon loadouts will be very dangerous to Dark Eldar armies); she'll likely destroy the unit.

Long Fangs are no different than basic marines. This is why she is compared to killing basic marines. Having her kill only a single Long Fang with 10 attacks at 160ish points is pretty crap when she could kill at least 2 long fangs with 5 attacks currently at 90 points. See the difference?


Or Sanguinary Guard, who have to invuln. save.

Once again, strength 3 versus toughness 4 = garbage. If you played Fantasy/IG, you'd know what I mean.


There are plenty more expensive, but exploitable targets: Space Marine honour guard, command retinues, sternguard.

Yes, all with marine like stats. If Lelith can barely kill 2 marines with 10 attacks, then how do you think she'll fair against these units?


TH/SS termies need to be dealt with in the conventional manner, weight of hits (not expensive special caracters). Pound them with some splinter cannon/carbine/pod shots, followed by a fly over attack of jetbikes.

Splinter weapons will do nothing do Terminators. Only Dark Lances.

[DrLove42]

Any word if Stingers are set to return? I love that gun...

[eldargal]

I still say Lelith+Incubi will be a winning combination against assaulty marines, halving their return attacks (so long as Lelith is in the thick of it) and Incubi attack on S4 with power weapons. Sure you can stick the Incubi with the Archon, but then he can't have his retinue which is fantastic.

[N0rdicNinja]

Incubi kick some major *** with or without a character attached! They're pretty high up on my "must kill" list from what's been spoiled thus far.

[Old_Paladin]

@Buffo:
The difference in killing longfangs, sanguinary guard, other elite marines is that:
1) they cost more then basic marines
2) there are less of them then a usual tact squad
3) they play different rolls on the battlefield then tact squads

A lot of these squads are fire support. If she only holds them up from shooting for two or three rounds then it's probably worked out better for the rest of your army.
As these squads tend to only be 5-6 marines strong then killing 2 is a significant amount of killing and would still wipe out the squad in two or three rounds of melee.
Except fot a powerfisting sternguard, or an expensive powerfist+termie armour+cyclone wolfguard placed with long fangs. These units cannot auto-glib her.



As for the splinter weapon vs. dark lance against termies.
Stock termies, yes. SS termies, no.
Lets say a unit of 6 non-upgraded Scourges costs the same as a Ravenger gunboat.
Gunboat: 3 shots, 2 hits ~2wounds = .67 kills (on 3++ shield)
6 Splinter carbines: 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds = 1 kill (on 2+ armour)
or 12 rapid firing rifles (from 12 warriors): 24 shots, 16 hits, 8 wounds = 1.33 kills

Lots of poison hit against armour saves is better then a few darklance hits against a storm shield (and this is based on roughly equal point cost unit vs. unit).

In fact a single splinter cannon in heavy mode is better then a single dark lance:
.33 kills for the cannon, vs. .18 kills for a lance. (again, armour vs. shield)

[DrLove42]

Disagree with the MEQ thing....judging a unit based on points it kills owrks, but its not a good way of judging a unit

As for what to kill Termys with that I agree. SS makes AP2 weapons less effective....drowning them in fire is the most effective way to kill

[Mal]

The point hes trying to make here is that needing 5 to even wound these basic troops (or their support equilivants) is really very poor for a 160 point model... remember this is just 1 mini, you still need to buy a squad to support her.

All this in an army that needs lots on the board to counter their fragility... she is a point sink.

Unless her rules for squad support/synergy are really good, then she is not worth her points... plain and simple.

Saying she shouldn;t be judged on her abality to kill is a pointless argument... she is a cannon, her just is to kill... her confirmed rules are all about killing... if she cannot then she is most definately not worth her points.

And as to the termi kill math above... why include SS in the calculations against the dark lance but 2 lines above it say no SS?

[Arhra]

Can you expand on Drazhar any?

We know he has Phoenix Lord stats, basic demiklaives as weapons though? Think someone mentioned a rule where he can choose who to be in base to base contact with, but that seems quite limited in value without some other supporting rules to assist.

Feel like providing some fluff highlights for him too? Some mention of him really being Arhra?

Is he prohibitively expensive and of limited value like all the other phoenix lords?

This is all second hand info..

Yeah, PL stats, including eternal warrior. Demiklaives are pretty great on a S4 character (+2 attacks or +2 strength.. incase you didn't know).

He can choose to be base to base with any enemy in the same combat.

If he's in an incubi unit, they are fearless.

He also gets the same abilities that a Klavex would grant the unit, which are:
Onslaught: wounds roll of 6 by drazhar/incubi allows for bonus attacks, these cannot produce more attacks.
Murderious Assault: He get prefered enemy at an IC he calls out

Apparently Arhra set up the Incubi temple and then vanished. Years passed and then Drazhar shows up wearing older-style armor, walks into the incubi temple, and slaughters its leader. Thereby becoming the new leader. There are rumors that he's really Arhra and that there's nothing but dust inside his armor...

Those combined with his stats lead one to believe that he really is Arhra.

I hear he's 230 points... so pretty pricey, just like the other PLs. He'll shred MEQs though.

Tomorrow I'll get some time with the codex, so I'll be able to verify this stuff first hand.

[BuFFo]

I hear he's 230 points... so pretty pricey, just like the other PLs. He'll shred MEQs though.

Ugh... Seriously?

He can already kill 5+ marines without the charge in the current book. For 230 points, he better be able to flip over LandRaiders from 72" away.

[Mal]

I dunno about 72" some people will call cheese for that.. lets be fair and say 70"...

[Old_Paladin]

And as to the termi kill math above... why include SS in the calculations against the dark lance but 2 lines above it say no SS?

You misinterprated the short hand.
I wasn't talking about what to include in the discussion; I was talking about what they are effective against.
I'll re-state what I meant in full sentance.

Are dark lances affective against normal models in terminator armour (or multi-wound, toughness 4 models)? Yes, they are.
Are they better against the 40 point storm shield termies? No, they are not as effective against these.


But; Back to the general discussion.
The real problem I am seeing with almost every SC (over then the significant price tag), is that they are almost all best as character killers.
The problem is that they are rendered pointless in this regard by much cheaper options.

Why take a 160 point Lilith or 230 point Drazhar (in regards to being character assassines), when I'm much better off with 2 Archons both with Shadow Field, soul-trap and huskblade (if possible).
They would be cheaper, probably better as surviving and can become a lot stronger in combat.

The only characters that actually seem useful are the ones that bring changes to the army itself. The Poison lord that gives 3+ poison to a unit of your choice every turn; or the Lady that gives immunity to Psykers to her unit.

[BuFFo]

Why take a 160 point Lilith or 230 point Drazhar (in regards to being character assassines), when I'm much better off with 2 Archons both with Shadow Field, soul-trap and huskblade (if possible).

YES YES YES YES YES

You have just summed up EVERYTHING about these new rumors in a single sentence.

In the current DE codex, you field an Archon or Archite over anything else. Maybe Drazhar if possible, since he is the most powerful single model in the cdoex. Now, in the new codex, according to the rumors presented online so far, nothing has changed. You'll still take an Archon over everything else.

And now the Archon can instant kill with a 2+ to wound?

Special Characters what?

I wanted more of the new DE codex to be USABLE, but for god sake, so far it seems more of the same.

I DO NOT WANT a single HQ choice that will now be the 'king' of the game, even bending over and killing Mephiston. I want more CHOICES that make sense.

So far, the new Codex SEEMS to be like the current codex; 20 units available, but you'll only want to use the same 4 over and over... How boring....

[Old_Paladin]

Well, I wouldn't say it'll be the same 4 choices over and over, but some things will standout as a better choice in some FOC slots.

However, I feel the biggest spot where there could be fighting for space is fast attack (which just seems right for Dark Eldar).
The jetbikes will be good, but the new Hellions really contend now (especially if the "hit and kidnap" rumor is true), and Scourges sound like they can be a good choice now (splinter carbines and haywire launchers sound great).

There could even be some debate over the best heavy choices: Ravager, the new fighter or bomber; maybe even the Talos or Cronos.

[eldargal]

I think its good, special characters no longer reigning supreme. But, you willsee people fielding Sathonyx to make Hellions troops and Lady Malys for her redeploy and you will see people fielding Lelith against T3 opponents.
Its worth mentioning that the people who actually have the codex in their hands have been stating its a very powerful codex. What we are experiencing now is people struggling to adjust to an army which will be very, very different to its previous incarnation.


YES YES YES YES YES

You have just summed up EVERYTHING about these new rumors in a single sentence.

In the current DE codex, you field an Archon or Archite over anything else. Maybe Drazhar if possible, since he is the most powerful single model in the cdoex. Now, in the new codex, according to the rumors presented online so far, nothing has changed. You'll still take an Archon over everything else.

And now the Archon can instant kill with a 2+ to wound?

Special Characters what?

I wanted more of the new DE codex to be USABLE, but for god sake, so far it seems more of the same.

I DO NOT WANT a single HQ choice that will now be the 'king' of the game, even bending over and killing Mephiston. I want more CHOICES that make sense.

So far, the new Codex SEEMS to be like the current codex; 20 units available, but you'll only want to use the same 4 over and over... How boring....

[BuFFo]

Its worth mentioning that the people who actually have the codex in their hands have been stating its a very powerful codex. What we are experiencing now is people struggling to adjust to an army which will be very, very different to its previous incarnation.

It is also worth mentioning that you don't know these people, and these people could be looking at a DE codex for the first time, ever, so everything LOOKS powerful, yet they don't understand how 'different' and possibly 'weaker' the new codex is when compared to the current codex.

Food for thought!

[Arhra]

And now the Archon can instant kill with a 2+ to wound?


Don't think so. The 'poison retinue model' only makes weapons that were already poisoned wound on a 2+. The huskblade is not poisoned. If you're refering to the soultrap + huskblade combo (to get S6 and then S10), then yeah that can work, but depending on your opponent... it may not be easy to get to S6/S10.

Still, I agree with the spirit of your post. An Archon with a shadowfield and some sort of weapon is still going to be the best HQ for his points.

Pretty sure the shadowfield is still only 'once per army' type of item, so you can't take two Archons with them, like Old_Paladin mentioned.

But, I am an Arhra and Incubi fanboy, so I'll probably try him out. The new Drazhar adds more to the army than the old one at least, but he has the inflated PL cost to go with it :(

My biggest concern with the new codex is that GW trapped themselves by keeping the harlies and Drazhar the same to match the CWE codex.... which is bad because most seem to consider harlies and PLs overpriced already. In this case, two wrongs don't make a right. So if the new Eldar codex comes out and they make harlies better, give PLs an invlunerable save and a price cut and add in a solitaire, then we're screwed.. I don't know, just seems like an awkward situation to me.

[eldargal]

I know some of them, actually. Not all my sources are on Warseer.:p


It is also worth mentioning that you don't know these people, and these people could be looking at a DE codex for the first time, ever, so everything LOOKS powerful, yet they don't understand how 'different' and possibly 'weaker' the new codex is when compared to the current codex.

Food for thought!

[BuFFo]

I know some of them, actually. Not all my sources are on Warseer.:p

Well, your friends need to give out more info than what is currently presented, because according to what has been rumored so far, the DE codex is looking piss poor...

[Old_Paladin]

HURRY!
Everyone needs to head over to Blood of Kittens right now.

TastyTaste has gotten his copy and he's posting rules and a raider full of pics of the actual codex.

[Faustus]

Anyone looked at Duke Siliscus the Serpent? I kinda dig him. Rolling an extra Dice for combat drugs and then choose and making one warrior squad wound everything on 3+ with splinter weapons. Also making every venom, raider and ravager able to deepstrike. Uhm yes please! His stats aren't that impresive but he still has a shadowfield and wounds on 2+ and ignores armour if he wounds on 5+, so just as effective as a normal Lord with power weapon against MEQ and then some because he will do wounds anyway! Just let him join a squad of wyches and attach a maemonculus. 4++ saves in CC and FNP wiyth good combat drugs resuslts and some extra agonisers. All that mounted in a raider with enhanced aethersails. just turboboost enjoy your 3+ cover save and assault next turn!

Or something like that while other raiders and ravagers come dropping from the sky.

[gcsmith]

well that duke guy is amazing, wats good is after the Raiders deepstrike with his rules u can assult :p

[GrenAcid]

Emm can you quote that rule? cus Im sure its only shoting allowed.

[gcsmith]

Nope It simply states the raiders may deepstrike, since deepstriking is cruising speed you may disembark, since its opentopped you may assault. Its the starfrust engines that only allow shooting.

[BuFFo]

Nope It simply states the raiders may deepstrike, since deepstriking is cruising speed you may disembark, since its opentopped you may assault. Its the starfrust engines that only allow shooting.

Deep Strike rules strictly forbid any units from assaulting out of a Deep Striking Vehicle.

Otherwise, DE players would have been doing this for years since in the current codex, all DE vehicles can Deep Strike already.

The ability to Deep Strike our Vehicles has been around for 12 years, so this isn't anything new, lol.

[gcsmith]

edit yes it seems u were right, however I dnt see why then they mention no assaulting in the items that give deepstiking since that isnt needed.

[GrenAcid]

@Buffo

Exactly, but it would be nice to have some upgrade on raider that allows such thing: First turn Incubi assault......B-B-B-B-Boner!

[Azkaellon]

Wyches can have hydra gauntlets, which gain them +D6 attacks on the charge, so they can have up to EIGHT attacks each. Multiply that by 15....:D

[Mal]

Deep Strike rules strictly forbid any units from assaulting out of a Deep Striking Vehicle.

Otherwise, DE players would have been doing this for years since in the current codex, all DE vehicles can Deep Strike already.

The ability to Deep Strike our Vehicles has been around for 12 years, so this isn't anything new, lol.

The problem we have is keeping the vehicles (and pointy eared perverts on board) alive after you've deep striked them

[eldargal]

I believe, and I may be wrong, that gydra gauntlets are limited to two per squad or one for every five Wyches or some such.


Wyches can have hydra gauntlets, which gain them +D6 attacks on the charge, so they can have up to EIGHT attacks each. Multiply that by 15....:D

[daboarder]

its one every 5 models, personally I think I'll be running dual shard nets on mine. Telling dedicated assualt troops they only get one attack each is going to be fun.

[gcsmith]

Meh im gonna stand with MSU design all in venoms, It covers our weakness of our units with target overload.

[Mal]

To be fair, even with as many confirmed rumours about our new dex, its still just too early to tell exactly that will and will not work...

I know for me its going to be months of hammering out different unit combinations to find what works best for me in my areas matagame.

I do have a few prefered lists i'd like to build (mostly based on the fact that if I can pull them off then I won't need to actually spend much money).

[Doomgrin]

It is also worth mentioning that you don't know these people, and these people could be looking at a DE codex for the first time, ever, so everything LOOKS powerful, yet they don't understand how 'different' and possibly 'weaker' the new codex is when compared to the current codex.

Food for thought!

Comparing the new to the old is pointless as you cannot chose (in official capacity) to use an older codex. Anyone pining for the old rules/stats is going to have to stick to friendly games.

Now comparing 5th ed DE army builds to other current armies is more productive.

[Lockark]

Is there any charaters that helps reserves come in faster? Or any characters/upgrades that allows raider's to outflank?


Also I remember reading someone said Webway Portals were still in. How do these work now?

[Doomgrin]

Is there any charaters that helps reserves come in faster? Or any characters/upgrades that allows raider's to outflank?


Also I remember reading someone said Webway Portals were still in. How do these work now?

WWP are dropped on the field by an archon or Haemonculus during the shooting phase (they buy as wargear). Any non-vehicle unit in reserves (to include outflankers or deepstrikers) may come in from the WWP as if it was a table edge (i.e. move and even charge) from what I understand. The dropper also cannot be in a vehicle.

Lastly, if you have a WWP you can put units in reserve even if the scenario rule does not allow it.

[Lockark]

What is the range on it? (Dose it have to be with-in so many inches of the Character? Can you just put it anywear you have L.O.S.?)

[GrenAcid]

You know after all, Im dissapointed, this army supose to be alfa-strike army....but it isnt. Looking in to fluff we have clear statment: DE fight by suprice, ambush, fast-attack....well we already miss 2 of that, we have ONE unit with infiltration, no DS on most transports.....even Valkyria have outflank, oh and for those who will say something about taking Duke-whatever--- it IS like taking spec character to use boltgun in SM army so cut it.


Anyway, thats just my thouts....maybe this dex gonna be awesome, maybe not, but I dont want wait for nex update.

(sorry for spelling)

[Lockark]

Well. Considering I deiced I want to take the duke the moment someone called him "David Bowie in space", that is good news for me.
:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhSYbRiYwTY

[BuFFo]

Comparing the new to the old is pointless as you cannot chose (in official capacity) to use an older codex. Anyone pining for the old rules/stats is going to have to stick to friendly games

And being that 99.9% of all games played by a person would BE friendly games, I don't see a problem with this at all.

[Doomgrin]

And being that 99.9% of all games played by a person would BE friendly games, I don't see a problem with this at all.

Sorry for the lack of clarity... by friendly I mean non-competitive, home-rule sort of games.

[BuFFo]

Sorry for the lack of clarity... by friendly I mean non-competitive, home-rule sort of games.

ALL games of 40k are competitive.

There are only two kinds of games - Tournament and Friendly.

That is a more accurate description of what a friendly game is to the majority of hobbyists.

Tournament games you HAVE to abide by their house rules.

Friendly games are game where you are not in a tournament, to say the least. In these games, both players agree to house rules before starting, whether they know it or not.

Now, having an opponent that only wants to play you with a current codex is still a friendly game, even though your opponent is not being friendly, lol.

[ShadowDeth]

Lelith gets hit on 5's and 6's by marines, nerfs extra attacks down and wipes combat within a two turn cycle, all the while bouncing what does get by her extreme WS advantage with her pretty hard 3++ in CC. It's a blessing she doesn't win combat in one turn.

She's an effective unit. Lern2Play

[Mal]

Lelith gets hit on 5's and 6's by marines, nerfs extra attacks down and wipes combat within a two turn cycle, all the while bouncing what does get by her extreme WS advantage with her pretty hard 3++ in CC. It's a blessing she doesn't win combat in one turn.

She's an effective unit. Lern2Play

We know how to play... just because she'll get a 3++ (im still waiting on confirmation on her actualy rules), doesn't make her a great character... I run an archon that eats monsterous creatures and characters... and he clocks in at about 115 points... lelith will be 160 points and not be able to do this.

The simple fact is that just because she has a 3 up inv save doesn't make her great in combat... and she is certinally poor in shooting (besides in the current rules she has a 2++ save).

To make lelith effective you'll want a wych squad with her (also to keep her alive long enough to actually hit combat), this will mean your throwing around 500 points into a single hq... this is called insanity for a Str 3 character.

Im not saying shes useless... she is good, but she is NOT 160 points good. Thats the difference.

[DrLove42]

We know how to play... just because she'll get a 3++ (im still waiting on confirmation on her actualy rules), doesn't make her a great character... I run an archon that eats monsterous creatures and characters... and he clocks in at about 115 points... lelith will be 160 points and not be able to do this.

The simple fact is that just because she has a 3 up inv save doesn't make her great in combat... and she is certinally poor in shooting (besides in the current rules she has a 2++ save).

To make lelith effective you'll want a wych squad with her (also to keep her alive long enough to actually hit combat), this will mean your throwing around 500 points into a single hq... this is called insanity for a Str 3 character.

Im not saying shes useless... she is good, but she is NOT 160 points good. Thats the difference.

OK spent a good 30 minutes with the dex this morning. As far as i remember her save is 3++ in combat, 4++ rest of time. And shes 145 points

Ok so shes down a little bit..but shes still not bad...

[synack]

Lelith gets hit on 5's and 6's by marines, nerfs extra attacks down and wipes combat within a two turn cycle, all the while bouncing what does get by her extreme WS advantage with her pretty hard 3++ in CC. It's a blessing she doesn't win combat in one turn.

She's an effective unit. Lern2Play

3++ will get you killed often enough. Ask my zoanthropes. Things may be hitting you on 5s, but if goes the other way around too. Lelith charges marines and gets, what, 10 attacks? Hits on about 7-8 of them and then, wounding on 5s, kills about 2-3 of them. Colour me scared. Fist hits back, manages to slide one through and you fail your 3++. It'll happen all to often.

Drugs and/or 4+ poison weapons would have made her a great char. Sadly, she's going to be one of those HQ's that look nice on paper, but doesn't end up worth her points when it comes time to cut the cheese.

The baron on the other hand is awesome. He's such a great support char that I can forgive the fact that he doesn't have a power weapon. He's cheap, give's helions re-rolls to get their hit-and-run off. Gives the units +1 cover save and lets them re-roll dangerous terrain, makes heliosn troop choices, has a 2+ invun AND you get +1 to your deployment roll. Oh yeah, he's S6 too, so he can go knock on some rear AV10 no probs. All this for just over 100 points? Yes please. The only downside to him is I can't take 2 of him :(

[DrLove42]

Pretty sure i'll be using the baron...i'm planning a pretty unorthodox DE army so helions as troops would be nice.

Theres a few SC who are nice....but an archon is so much more customisable and cheaper...

[ShadowDeth]

3++ will get you killed often enough. Ask my zoanthropes. Things may be hitting you on 5s, but if goes the other way around too. Lelith charges marines and gets, what, 10 attacks? Hits on about 7-8 of them and then, wounding on 5s, kills about 2-3 of them. Colour me scared. Fist hits back, manages to slide one through and you fail your 3++. It'll happen all to often.

Drugs and/or 4+ poison weapons would have made her a great char. Sadly, she's going to be one of those HQ's that look nice on paper, but doesn't end up worth her points when it comes time to cut the cheese.


Zoanthropes have no effective close combat capability, and cannot reduce counter attacks at high initiative before they get a chance to strike. They also don't have other combat tricks.

What actually happens is, Lelith Charges a marine unit. She starts with 11 attacks.

She hits about Eight times, and as you said kills about 2-3 of them. The other 6 marines make a single attack against her (depending on position), and probably hit once - probably wounding and then dodged by her Invul save.

The fist, that she moved into base contact has one attack against her, needing 5's to hit her. It doesn't hit. If it does hit, it most likely doesn't wound past her dodge. The probability of one instant death weapon killing her past her Weapon skill advantage versus WS 4 or less and her 3++ is extremely low. If it happens, it would have happened much easier to almost any other IC that doesn't have eternal warrior.

Marines test against leadership minus 2 or 3, and probably stick. She does it again next turn. Killing a few more marines, forcing another test. Possibly wiping them out.

Her toughness, lack of Eternal Warrior have no effect on her ability to win combats. A powerfist, used as an example is a weak counter argument to her weakness. Who doesn't die to powerfists if they hit, wound, and fail their save?

Lern2math/play

[DarkLink]

I wouldn't be scared of her on her own, but I think she'd be a lot better buried inside another unit. Though if this really is all her special rules, then she'll have rather limited uses.

She'll absolutely tear through Guard squads, though:rolleyes:



Lern2math/play

Lern2bePolite. We're all friends here.

[BuFFo]

Currently Lelith can be used as a Marine Killer, but a tricked out Archite for a few points more can do a better job.

In the new book, Lelith is used as a T3 model killer, but a tricked out Archon for roughly the same cost can do a MUCH better job against all models.

In both books, Lelith is just sub par, but in the new book, she is even more subpar than before.

Lelith got a +4 attack upgrade, but an armor save downgrade, a wounding downgrade, and a points increase. She can no longer stand up to MCs in the new book as well as she currently can, either.

The most important aspect is that she doesn't have a retinue anymore. So yes, her survivability has gown down.

She does has her uses in the new book, and yes she is a 'decent' SC, but she is no longer the 'all around' power house that she 'was'.

Now granted, as I already have mentioned, in either version of the DE codex, a tricked out Archon(new)/Archite(current) is just flat out better than Lelith anyway.

The best reason to take SCs now is to mess around with your troop selections. Otherwise, Archons will rule the day.... As it should be anyway! So, even though I may not like the new Lelith, I never cared for her current self either, so for me, I honestly couldn't care less about her and her new 'power level'.

If people use the new Lelith, and like what she could do, just remember that you could have been using a better version of her for the past 12 years... muahahahahaha!!! No seriously though... more power to you!

[NeilBrimelow]

Can someone please give me the low down on Asdrubael Vect.

I understand that he can steal the Init. on a 4+ and has orbs of darkness ST10, but what role does he play for his "250" points? Is he a close combat monster? Is he shooty? Does he give any special abilities.

What's the deal with his incredibly overpriced "Dais"? Does it have any field/save, or is it just 13/13/13?

Lastly, what's the deal with some character's bodyguard's or retinue NOT acting like a retinue?

[eldargal]

This is one of the things I like about the new codex, actually. None of the SCs are 'must haves', the generic characters are perfectly decent, ditto for nearly all the units, they all have their uses but people can pick the ones they prefew on a fluff/aesthetic level.
I really, really hope they apply this to future codices, particularly Marines.




Currently Lelith can be used as a Marine Killer, but a tricked out Archite for a few points more can do a better job.

In the new book, Lelith is used as a T3 model killer, but a tricked out Archon for roughly the same cost can do a MUCH better job against all models.

In both books, Lelith is just sub par, but in the new book, she is even more subpar than before.

Lelith got a +4 attack upgrade, but an armor save downgrade, a wounding downgrade, and a points increase. She can no longer stand up to MCs in the new book as well as she currently can, either.

The most important aspect is that she doesn't have a retinue anymore. So yes, her survivability has gown down.

She does has her uses in the new book, and yes she is a 'decent' SC, but she is no longer the 'all around' power house that she 'was'.

Now granted, as I already have mentioned, in either version of the DE codex, a tricked out Archon(new)/Archite(current) is just flat out better than Lelith anyway.

The best reason to take SCs now is to mess around with your troop selections. Otherwise, Archons will rule the day.... As it should be anyway! So, even though I may not like the new Lelith, I never cared for her current self either, so for me, I honestly couldn't care less about her and her new 'power level'.

If people use the new Lelith, and like what she could do, just remember that you could have been using a better version of her for the past 12 years... muahahahahaha!!! No seriously though... more power to you!

[BuFFo]

I really, really hope they apply this to future codices, particularly Marines.

BUAHAHAHAHAH BUAHAHAHAHAH BUAHAHAHAHAHAH

Please.... If you tried to balance a Marine Codex, all you would get is thousands of crying, whining babies all over the internets complaining to GW how their 'easy win' button army isn't 'easy win' anymore.

Keep the balanced codices in the hands of Xenos players, thank you very much...


Can someone please give me the low down on Asdrubael Vect.

I understand that he can steal the Init. on a 4+ and has orbs of darkness ST10, but what role does he play for his "250" points? Is he a close combat monster? Is he shooty? Does he give any special abilities.

What's the deal with his incredibly overpriced "Dais"? Does it have any field/save, or is it just 13/13/13?

Lastly, what's the deal with some character's bodyguard's or retinue NOT acting like a retinue?

Retinues are a dying breed.... I think only Witch Hunter/Deamonhunter/Tau codices have retinues after the DE book gets changed... 3rd edition books to be exact....

- edit -

BAH DOH DANG OHHMPH!?!?!?! Double Post for the loss!!! Can a Mod please merge my posts?

[eldargal]

Quite. It would do them good, adversity builds character. Anyway if you play against me, Marines aren't easy win'.:P
But, I didn't mean balance the whole codex, most SM units seem worth taking already, specifically I was referring to the special characters just being ridiculously better than the generic characters.


BUAHAHAHAHAH BUAHAHAHAHAH BUAHAHAHAHAHAH

Please.... If you tried to balance a Marine Codex, all you would get is thousands of crying, whining babies all over the internets complaining to GW how their 'easy win' button army isn't 'easy win' anymore.

Keep the balanced codices in the hands of Xenos players, thank you very much...

[ShadowDeth]

I wouldn't be scared of her on her own, but I think she'd be a lot better buried inside another unit. Though if this really is all her special rules, then she'll have rather limited uses.

She'll absolutely tear through Guard squads, though:rolleyes:



Lern2bePolite. We're all friends here.

How did your Grey Knight prediction for Q4 2010 work out for you?

Still sure it's coming?

[Drew da Destroya]

How did your Grey Knight prediction for Q4 2010 work out for you?

Still sure it's coming?

Is it really necessary to troll this forum? This insult isn't even on topic!


Lelith seems like she'll be a fun character to play with, especially if you're doing a "fluffy" wyche cult list.

[Old_Paladin]

You know, If she had razorflails; she'd actually be worth her cost.
That's all she needed, the Queen of the Arena actually being able to take an Arena weapon of her choice.

Actually, I also think we'll see a lot more of her in about a year. Just after the Sisters of Battle codex comes out. Low weapon skill, low toughness models in power armour; she'll have a lot of fun times with those girls.

[DrLove42]

Everyone seems to get caught up on lelith gainst marines. And yes shes taken a bit of a dive. You pitch her against Eldar, Tau, guard....

Imagine her against a firewarrior squad....12/13 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+...she'd tear through them without breaking a sweat.

[Old_Paladin]

Everyone seems to get caught up on lelith gainst marines. And yes shes taken a bit of a dive. You pitch her against Eldar, Tau, guard....

Imagine her against a firewarrior squad....12/13 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+...she'd tear through them without breaking a sweat.

Well, I guess most peoples point is that well over half the armies you fight are a form of Marine where is counts (Codex, Wolves, Angels, Templars, Chaos, Bloodletters/Plaugebearers, even Necrons and Orks); they are all WS:4+ and Toughness:4+

She won't fight those softer armies in the manner people are saying she's best at. Even against firewarriors, she kills 4-5... that's sad actaully!
When's the last time you saw firewarriors that weren't a squad of 6-8, usually mech'd?
A squad of 5-6 wyches or hellions, with a leader with a powerweapon would wipe out a squad like that and be a third to a half the cost of Lilith.

Guard are either going to be mech'd vets and again normal wyches or hellions would be better; or blob mobs of 40 guys. Even if she kills 10 (very unlikely), 30+ return attacks will probably kill her.

Units like eldar Aspect Warriors are probably your best target.

[w7west]

Space marine: o shi guys it lelith!

Lelith: HAWOOOOO FRESH THROATS!!!!

Space marine: guys is 9 attacks! Quick get in rhino!

Techmarine: lol guys is just str 3

Space marine: str 3? but she 170 points!

Plague marine: lol str 3?

Space marine: haha ya guy is only str 3

Plague marine: o lol!

*rapid fire*

Space marine: lol was ez'er than that 200 point open topped thing we killed.

[EnglishInquisition]

Best reason to take Lelith?
It's SUCH a cool model!

Looking through the codex, there seem to be so many army options to keep your opponent on their toes! Sooooo many Hq choices to wrap a theme around and the new sculpts....... c'mon - over 5 years in the making and definately some of the best models GW have ever produced!

Fai renough, if you get caught up in a prolonged combat you're going to suffer, BUT Eldar of any flavour are! New Codex, new sculpts, new background, new units, lets play!
Mine are already on order.

[Mal]

As things stand now with the old codex, the only reason to take lelith is because shes a little cheaper than a wych arcite with the same gear...

In the new codex she will be about a time and a half the cost of the same archite and not nearly as good at killing MEQ...

I may just buy the model and run her as an arcite (im using the old mini as the dracite).

She is a good character but I firmly believe she is not worth her points, she doesn't even have squad synergy like she used to.

[DarkLink]

So the high WS, 3++ and bunches of attacks is really all Lilith has? That's a bummer, that doesn't quite add up to her points. I would think she would have to have some other piece of wargear or special rule or something.


Is it really necessary to troll this forum? This insult isn't even on topic!


The insult isn't even relevant within its own topic. Heck, I'm not even sure why he tried to turn this into an insult. It's like making fun of someone for saying "huh, it might rain today because of all those ominous clouds". There are some things you can't predict, and I never tried to claim to know anything for certain anyways.

Either way, this is what the ignore list is for.

[Master Bryss]

My apologies for wading in on the debate, but I'd like something clarified. Does the Aethersail work like the Red Paint Job and give you 'bonus movement?'

[DrLove42]

To the best of my knowledge yes.

2D6 extra movement, but in leui of shooting. Gives a maximum move of 36". And then be able to get out and assault next turn :D after having a 4+ cover save last turn

[BuFFo]

To the best of my knowledge yes.

2D6 extra movement, but in leui of shooting. Gives a maximum move of 36". And then be able to get out and assault next turn :D after having a 4+ cover save last turn

Thats all it does?

Take it from me guys.... Trust me....

Don't give the new Raider any upgrades. No 5++, no +2d6" movement. It doesn't need any of those things.

What you need to do is keep your Raiders as cheap as possible.

They can already move 24", and in doing so, you get a 4+ Cover Save. The 24" is PLENTY enough to get Wyches into combat. From Deployment, a Raider + Wyches can deliver the Wyches up to 29" into assault (without the 12" charge, lol).

Do not waste your points on Raider upgrades... Trust me on this... Unless the book still has Horrorfexes... If they are still 5 points, get those.. They are friggin awesome....

[Mal]

How do you figure moving 29" into assault?

Not a critism just interested... it looks like im missing something in teh rules... but a 29" assault would mean all 5 of my wych units in combat immediately.

[synack]

From what I've heard you can't assault after the extra 2d6 movement.

[DrLove42]

Can't assault that turn. Next one you can. Have to rely on that 4+ save to keep you alive.....when youre close to an enemy, with an open top vehicle with armour 10. Good luck with that, without some awesome scenery usage

[Master Bryss]

I suppose having a cruising speed of 24" would be a bit overkill, thanks guys. Looks like I'll be running my Raiders with no upgrades again as I have done for years.

[synack]

I think the 5+ invun is a good option, as well as the retro fire things, as that allows you to deep strike and still fire.

I can see small squads of the elite warriors, packed with blasters, deep striking in with venoms. Guys disembark and shoot transports/high armour, venom shoots the contents. Get blown up next turn, but I think the trade will generally be worth it.

[DrLove42]

I'm just gonna leave this here....

Its an good summary of everything. See a lot of scratchbuilds for the two "aircraft" as they have some pretty hard rules

[isotope99]

I'm just gonna leave this here....


Its an good summary of everything. See a lot of scratchbuilds for the two "aircraft" as they have some pretty hard rules

Fortunately, I have pre-ordered the codex so that soothes my moral and ethical dilemma in looking at that link. Good to know that regular haemonculi also allow wracks as troops. This suits my Bride of Frankenstein (wyches + haemonculi) themed army plan.

For the aircraft, I have the following plans:

Razorwing:

Falcon wings from a bits site (cutting out the middle bit of the chassis but saving the engines) combined with an eldar vyper and one of the new DE reaver jetbikes for some more angular and spiky bits.

Void Raven:

I'm going to push the boat out and have ordered a Forge World Phoenix. All I need to do is replace the weapons and paint in dark eldar colours (maybe also some extra spiky bits).

[Archon Charybdis]

So what's the deal with Hellions? I heard somebody in a different thread talking about the bevy of S6 attacks they'd be dishing out. Is that actually possible? I'd heard with the Hell Glaives they're S4 and 2 attacks. So if they pick up Furious Charge from PtP I understand how they could be S5, but do they have some other special rule that could make them S6? Is +1 S still an option from combat drugs, and do they get combat drugs for that matter?

[Duke]

I believe that combat drugs does give the +1 strength among other things.

Duke

[Ghoulio]

So what's the deal with Hellions? I heard somebody in a different thread talking about the bevy of S6 attacks they'd be dishing out. Is that actually possible? I'd heard with the Hell Glaives they're S4 and 2 attacks. So if they pick up Furious Charge from PtP I understand how they could be S5, but do they have some other special rule that could make them S6? Is +1 S still an option from combat drugs, and do they get combat drugs for that matter?

Yup, they do get combat drugs. The six different things you can get are:

- Rolling 3d6 for fleet and choosing the highest
- +1 str
- +1 WS
- +1 A
- Re-rolling failed wounds
- a free pain token.

All of those are great for the hellions or anything else in your army with combat drugs (as you make one roll and everything with combat drugs gets that one choice). I am really happy that they are all finally useful. Nothing worse then getting "Always Strikes First" on a unit that has plasma grenades and is Init 6 lol.

[Image]

How do you figure moving 29" into assault?

Not a critism just interested... it looks like im missing something in teh rules... but a 29" assault would mean all 5 of my wych units in combat immediately.

12" from the vehicle moving.

2" + size of the model's base after disembarking in front of it, meaning close to 3".

up to 6" fleet.

6" charge.

Looks close to 27" to me, so there's something I'm likely missing.

[BuFFo]

So what's the deal with Hellions? I heard somebody in a different thread talking about the bevy of S6 attacks they'd be dishing out. Is that actually possible? I'd heard with the Hell Glaives they're S4 and 2 attacks. So if they pick up Furious Charge from PtP I understand how they could be S5, but do they have some other special rule that could make them S6? Is +1 S still an option from combat drugs, and do they get combat drugs for that matter?

Yes, they get the army-wide Combat Drug rule, and yes, +1 Strength is still one of the random options you can roll for.


12" from the vehicle moving.

2" + size of the model's base after disembarking in front of it, meaning close to 3".

up to 6" fleet.

6" charge.

Looks close to 27" to me, so there's something I'm likely missing.

Okay, this is how you do it, and it is mainly done on the very first time you move your raiders.

1) Deploy your Raiders perpendicular to where they are going to move. This means you need to deploy them sideways, basically, up against the deployment line. Move your Raider 12", the pivot your Raider so that it is now facing the unit you want to assault. I forget the exact measurement, but the pivot nets you an extra 2ish inches.

Due to the wording on Vehicle Movement, you can only preform this maneuver the very first time you move your Raider without very specific conditions happening.

2) Deploy your units out past the edge of the 2" deployment zone, which is roughly just under an inch for normal based models. This gets you roughly 2.9" disembarkment from the Raider.

3) Run 1D6", lets say you get 6"

4) Assault 6"

You have assaulted roughly 28.9" on the first turn.

Now, you can do this on other turns, but it isn't an easy thing to do. Basically, you can only move your Raiders sideways from where it sits without pivoting before moving it. This means you can only move the raider in 90 degree angles each time. I am not going to get into the rules of such things, as I honestly don't care to do so. There are tons of threads on this very same subject form months ago you guys can go check out.

Just do this on the first turn, and you'll be fine rules wise.

[Mal]

Good to know, thanks Buffo.

[RIGHT-Titan]

Yes, they get the army-wide Combat Drug rule, and yes, +1 Strength is still one of the random options you can roll for.



Okay, this is how you do it, and it is mainly done on the very first time you move your raiders.

1) Deploy your Raiders perpendicular to where they are going to move. This means you need to deploy them sideways, basically, up against the deployment line. Move your Raider 12", the pivot your Raider so that it is now facing the unit you want to assault. I forget the exact measurement, but the pivot nets you an extra 2ish inches.

Due to the wording on Vehicle Movement, you can only preform this maneuver the very first time you move your Raider without very specific conditions happening.

2) Deploy your units out past the edge of the 2" deployment zone, which is roughly just under an inch for normal based models. This gets you roughly 2.9" disembarkment from the Raider.

3) Run 1D6", lets say you get 6"

4) Assault 6"

You have assaulted roughly 28.9" on the first turn.

Now, you can do this on other turns, but it isn't an easy thing to do. Basically, you can only move your Raiders sideways from where it sits without pivoting before moving it. This means you can only move the raider in 90 degree angles each time. I am not going to get into the rules of such things, as I honestly don't care to do so. There are tons of threads on this very same subject form months ago you guys can go check out.

Just do this on the first turn, and you'll be fine rules wise.

I just re-read vehicle movement.. I must be missing something... what is the deal with the perpendicular move and having to do it first turn? A pivot never counts towards movement afaik. Or are you just milking the deployment zone?

[BuFFo]

I just re-read vehicle movement.. I must be missing something... what is the deal with the perpendicular move and having to do it first turn? A pivot never counts towards movement afaik. Or are you just milking the deployment zone?

Like I said, there is another thread on this somewhere in this forum with illustrations. Check it out.

There is no such thing as 'milking'. You either play by the rules or not.

[Old_Paladin]

The good ol' dark eldar pivot.
It can work defensively too.
If you've placed yourself in a poor position (It'll happen to a lot of people getting used to a new army), turn your raider to expose the broadside. The 2" may not seem like much, but every little bit helps; and your side armour is just as crappy as the front.

Clearly the rules are made with square shaped imperial tanks in mind, or the less common round-ish xeno hover-tanks (eldar and tau).

[RIGHT-Titan]

Like I said, there is another thread on this somewhere in this forum with illustrations. Check it out.

There is no such thing as 'milking'. You either play by the rules or not.

Milking doesn't have to imply that you're doing anything wrong... I'm not entirely sure why you're so defensive about it. I'm just saying you're making the most out of it.

[BuFFo]

Milking doesn't have to imply that you're doing anything wrong... I'm not entirely sure why you're so defensive about it. I'm just saying you're making the most out of it.

Don't get too excited to think I would get defensive over something as stupid as that. I type words, you read them how you wanted to, but that doesn't mean I am sitting here at my keyboard pissed at what you said.

Anyway, the term 'Milking it' can be taken as derogatory. I mean, why would you say that if I am playing by the rules? If you saw someone move their unit 6" in the movement, would you honeslty tell them they are 'milking it'? No, you wouldn't.

Trust me, besides the 2 minutes it takes for me to type this, I forget you even exist.

I am sure you'll read that out of context as well, so here are some smileys to placate you.

:) :p ;) :D

[Old_Paladin]

You know Buffo, while you're still a little sarcastic, you seem a great deal less lately.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that the updating of your codex (for all the things you dislike about it) has made you happy like a little school girl and softened your bitter heart.

...or maybe it's the updated models,
...yeah, it's gotta be the eye candy that's made you a happier person.

[BuFFo]

You know Buffo, while you're still a little sarcastic, you seem a great deal less lately.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that the updating of your codex (for all the things you dislike about it) has made you happy like a little school girl and softened your bitter heart.

...or maybe it's the updated models,
...yeah, it's gotta be the eye candy that's made you a happier person.

Right-Titan has 12 posts, which means he is probably new, and that means I can't be nice to him, yet.

Trial by fire....

This is how I am in real life. I mess with new people, and if they can take it, I become their best friend!

Anyway, I am happy that DE got downdated. Something is nothing I guess. I am mad that my Archon stays at strength 3, and there is no reroll misses for our Drugs, and that there is no reaver HQ, and that running faster is a drug effect while for IG to get the same thing they just have to be yelled at, and that, and that....

:mad: :D

[DarkLink]

Yeah, IG must have some really motivating Officers and NCOs compared to every single other army in the game.

[Drew da Destroya]

Or they've been secretly slipping DE drugs into the combat rations. I'm thinking that the "run fasta" drug was probably rendered out of the remnants of all the Hormaguants that nobody uses anymore.

[RIGHT-Titan]

Right-Titan has 12 posts, which means he is probably new, and that means I can't be nice to him, yet.

Trial by fire....

This is how I am in real life. I mess with new people, and if they can take it, I become their best friend!

Anyway, I am happy that DE got downdated. Something is nothing I guess. I am mad that my Archon stays at strength 3, and there is no reroll misses for our Drugs, and that there is no reaver HQ, and that running faster is a drug effect while for IG to get the same thing they just have to be yelled at, and that, and that....

:mad: :D



Don't get too excited to think I would get defensive over something as stupid as that. I type words, you read them how you wanted to, but that doesn't mean I am sitting here at my keyboard pissed at what you said.

Anyway, the term 'Milking it' can be taken as derogatory. I mean, why would you say that if I am playing by the rules? If you saw someone move their unit 6" in the movement, would you honeslty tell them they are 'milking it'? No, you wouldn't.

Eh. Whatever... Might be new here, but not new to the internets. You are right though I wouldn't tell you that you were milking your movement by moving 6".

Because that wouldn't make sense.

But if I say you're milking the deployment zone it's because you're doing something a little tricksy that a lot of people would not immediately think to do. No derision implied. So your snappy comment about how I'm misinterpreting you can take a big ol' filing under "Return to Sender".

edited for obligatory smileys:

:D :)

[BuFFo]

But if I say you're milking the deployment zone it's because you're doing something a little tricksy that a lot of people would not immediately think to do.

I understand what you mean. We all learn something new from time to time. No biggie.


No derision implied. So your snappy comment about how I'm misinterpreting you can take a big ol' filing under "Return to Sender".

Cool!

[Sikil]

This update is freakin' awesome! Models are top notch and the rules seem to be of the same standard! Now, I wish the Tau get the same treatment, at least for their rules. 5th Ed with its cover- and hth-centric rules gives Tau a eaven harder time than before! :(

Well, seems I'll get some DE to compensate! :D






You know Buffo, while you're still a little sarcastic, you seem a great deal less lately.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that the updating of your codex (for all the things you dislike about it) has made you happy like a little school girl and softened your bitter heart.

...or maybe it's the updated models,
...yeah, it's gotta be the eye candy that's made you a happier person.


Nay, it must be the combat drugs!

[Lockark]

So something funny I thought of the other day when reading the book, that no one mentioned. Since Ravengers can fire all there dark lances when moving at cruising Speed, that means then can fire everything after deep striking. (Since deep striking counts as moving at cruising.)

O.o

Raiders being fast means you can fire thows one Dark Lances on the front when they come in.


I think a Deep Striking Dark Eldar Army could be quite nasty....

[Mal]

Yes you can fire everything on the ravager when its ds'ing, im not overly fond of ds'ing DE as you can't assault the turn you arrive and the only units I want close to the enemy are my combat units which tend to have a great weakness to shooting attacks.... let alone rapidfire.

[Lockark]

Yes you can fire everything on the ravager when its ds'ing, im not overly fond of ds'ing DE as you can't assault the turn you arrive and the only units I want close to the enemy are my combat units which tend to have a great weakness to shooting attacks.... let alone rapidfire.


I'm thinking of it in a different way.

If I've got 1st turn I'm setting up my gun line and blowing away there tanks as fast as I can.


But if I have 2nd turn I would be reserving my forces and DS'ing my stuff in.

It's ok if they kill your raider with rapid fireing bolters after, because you've killed there Rhino.

[Mal]

Its not the raider im worried about getting rapid fired... its the unit in it.

Plus there is no garuntee that you'll get what you want from reserves.... i've had games with 4-5 units in reserve and none of them hitting the table until turn 5... things didn't go well.

I try to play in such a way that luck has a minimal effect on my stragety, that way, good or bad, im still in with a fighting chance.

[Lockark]

Then what Would you do if you had to go 2nd? Even Heavy Bolters pen your transports on 6's. Most marine armies I've seen stock up on Missile Launchers, and Guard stock up on a ungodly amount of Autocanons/Lascannons.


At least do to the "metagame" of the store I go to, going 2nd and deploying on the board dose not seem like a viable option in the least.

The way I see it is you can't bother playing dark eldar conservatively. You have to go balls to the wall.

Go ahead and deep strike your Radier's in area terriean. Who cares if you end up imbolizeing it in the process? If it gets destroyed it's alright because now the guys inside are in area terriean.

[Mal]

If that works for you, then great... but the people I play against know how best to priotise the targets and ensure that the units I do get down are wiped out the turn they arrive... so my raider gets a single shot off... odds are thats not going to do anything and in return I loose the raider and the wych squad in it.

And you may want to go back and read the rules... if you want to ds your raiders into terrain you'll be taking a mishap test, and none of the results are good for you.

As for me 'not bothering to play DE conservatively'... I don't know if you've noticed, but they are not exactly a conservative army... you cannot play DE like you would any other army and expect to do well.

I play my DE in ways that cover their weaknesses and maximise their strengths.. the rest is up to the dice gods.

As for going second, simple, my opponent sets up first, I set up so that my transports are out of the line of fire as much as possible. This is nothing but simple deployment tactics, anyone who's been playing for a while will tell you that setting up any vehicle in direct line of fire of your opponents heavy weapons is a bad idea.

[Lockark]

And you may want to go back and read the rules... if you want to ds your raiders into terrain you'll be taking a mishap test, and none of the results are good for you.



It's not a mishap into area, it's a Dangerous Terriean Check. It's a mishap if there in impassible or if there is no room for the modle/unit.

To quote exactly:


If any of the models in a deep striking unit can not be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top or within 1" of a enemy model. The controlling player must roll on the mishap chart.


Modles arriving via deep strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

So yah. Maby you should take your own suggestion and read the rules your self.
;)



As for going second, simple, my opponent sets up first, I set up so that my transports are out of the line of fire as much as possible. This is nothing but simple deployment tactics, anyone who's been playing for a while will tell you that setting up any vehicle in direct line of fire of your opponents heavy weapons is a bad idea.

Yah. Because that will help you ageist IG andRazorback spam. They just have to spread there army out and you'll be hard pressed to find a place to deploy thows transports any wear to not be shot.

It sounds like your banking on your opponents not knowing how to deploy there armies.

[BuFFo]

Yah. Because that will help you ageist IG andRazorback spam. They just have to spread there army out and you'll be hard pressed to find a place to deploy thows transports any wear to not be shot.

Which is the absolute WORST thing you can do against a Dark Eldar player. If you spread out your army, the DE player Deploys in a single flank, and envelops your army.

I've been playing DE for years, and this is the biggest mistake I always hope my opponents do during deployment.

[Mal]

I've played for over 18 years... I know how to set up my army to survive.

Just because you fail to get first turn doesn't mean you will auto-loose.

And for the record I am banking on nothing but my own repitoire of tactics.

[Lockark]

I've played for over 18 years... I know how to set up my army to survive.

Just because you fail to get first turn doesn't mean you will auto-loose.

And for the record I am banking on nothing but my own repitoire of tactics.


I realy don't care if you've been playing for the last 18 years. That's just your claim, and I just showed you didn't even know how the mishap rules properly worked in 5th ed untill today.
:D


No one can know EVERYTHING. I'm not saying your tactics are wrong. But one thing we both need to accept is that the terriean were we play can wildly effect what tactics are viable.


Your tactics may work on a table with lots of LOS blocking terriean.

But there kinda useless to me. Since I need tactics that take advantage of abundant Area Terriean/ruins.


I'm personally quite happy to hear the tactics and strategies you use with your dakr eldar, they will be things I keep in mind when I start this army up.

But they will not always be viable for me, do to the fact the boards I play on will not always have large amounts of LOS blocking terriean.

I personal think I will be taking the Duke in every army list I build, for the option of deep striking alone. (The other bonuses he gives just the iceing on the cake.)