Moving into assault and difficult terrain

[Lykum]

Spacecurve's article on the passive aggressive assault got me thinking about previous misconceptions I had about the assault rules. I revisited the BRB and am now confused.

All references are from the BRB p34.

The initial assault movement is completed by ONE model only (provided he doesn't die from a dangerous terrain test). He must be the one closest to the enemy, and must move in the shortest direction toward BtB contact. If he must go through difficult terrain, then the unit tests for terrain as normal.

So previously, I felt that those rules applied to every model moving in the assault phase, and now I think it is only the first guy. "If the enemy is within range, then the assault move continues. After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire. There are some constraints on their movement though." This is followed by 5 bullets (not bolter rounds).

The bullet I am confused about is #2. "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."
-Does this guy have to move by the shortest possible route?
-Assuming the first attacker was not required to test for it, does the presence of intervening difficult terrain make it impossible for him to reach BtB contact?

This is the solution I see.
-If attacker 1 did not test for difficult terrain, and subsequent attackers cannot move 6" while remaining outside of difficult terrain, then it is impossible for bullet #2 to be met and it is ignored.
-If that is the case, then subsequent attackers would attempt to meet the criteria of the following bullets.

[DarkLink]

So previously, I felt that those rules applied to every model moving in the assault phase, and now I think it is only the first guy. "If the enemy is within range, then the assault move continues. After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire. There are some constraints on their movement though." This is followed by 5 bullets (not bolter rounds).

The bullet I am confused about is #2. "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."
-Does this guy have to move by the shortest possible route?
-Assuming the first attacker was not required to test for it, does the presence of intervening difficult terrain make it impossible for him to reach BtB contact?

This is the solution I see.
-If attacker 1 did not test for difficult terrain, and subsequent attackers cannot move 6" while remaining outside of difficult terrain, then it is impossible for bullet #2 to be met and it is ignored.
-If that is the case, then subsequent attackers would attempt to meet the criteria of the following bullets.

Hmm. It only ever specifies that the first model to move must take difficult/dangerous terrain tests. Now, if that model is killed by the dangerous terrain test, the the second model will also have to take the tests. But once a model makes it into contact with the enemy unit, it doesn't say anything about taking further tests.

Why does GW have to be so bad at writing precise rules?

[Lykum]

The second reference I can find in regards to this situation is p14 of the BRB.

"If a unit starts its move outside of difficult terrain , the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit moves as normal, but may not enter difficult terrain"

Notice they say 'move', and not movement phase, so we can infer they are also talking about assault moves.

So if you want anyone in the unit to move through difficult terrain, you gotta roll for it prior to the assault. If you don't, no one in the unit may enter difficult terrain.

Thoughts? I'm thinking I should be a lawyer.

[Spiv]

I was sure I read somewhere that when the units assaulting, if they try to go through diff. terrain, they roll and if they come up short, they can't move into assault. Just like in declaring the assault to find you're out of range.

Have you checked the errata's for any clarification in them?

[Lykum]

I was sure I read somewhere that when the units assaulting, if they try to go through diff. terrain, they roll and if they come up short, they can't move into assault. Just like in declaring the assault to find you're out of range.

Have you checked the errata's for any clarification in them?

Nothing in errata or FAQ. Read p34. That will answer or create questions as applicable.

[DarkLink]

I was sure I read somewhere that when the units assaulting, if they try to go through diff. terrain, they roll and if they come up short, they can't move into assault. Just like in declaring the assault to find you're out of range.


Well, he quotes the relevant points, and if you really read into it, it appears to say that you take a test if the first model hits difficult/dangerous terrain, but not the subsequent models. And it's ambiguous enough that you can't tell if that is intentional or not. Great work on GW's part.

[Castello]

Read pág 36 "Assault Through Cover".

[Nabterayl]

Well, he quotes the relevant points, and if you really read into it, it appears to say that you take a test if the first model hits difficult/dangerous terrain, but not the subsequent models. And it's ambiguous enough that you can't tell if that is intentional or not. Great work on GW's part.
How is that any different from any other difficult terrain test, or a Slow and Purposeful unit? You roll once for a single model, and every other model is constrained to that movement speed for the rest of the move. If you have three obliterators you don't get to move each the best of 2d6". You roll for one obliterator, and the other two move at that speed. Same thing for assaults; it's a general principle of difficult terrain rolls.

[Tynskel]

Here's the thing, the moving through cover for assault rules override the standard move rules in assault. Just because the rule appears 2-3 pages later, doesn't mean it is ignored until you need to roll it. It is the opposite. You must adhere to the movement rules for cover/terrain.

As for all movement rules, if one model in the unit has to move a certain way, then all models in the unit have to move the same way.

The rulebook is set up in a certain format: Easy Rules first--- to get you playing right away. More complicated rules Later.

So, initially when reading the rulebook, you would ignore any of the complicated rules. Then once you understand the mechanics of the game, you add in the complicated rules. They 'overlay' the simple rules, as opposed to being 'triggered' later. They are running in parallel.

[DarkLink]

How is that any different from any other difficult terrain test, or a Slow and Purposeful unit? You roll once for a single model, and every other model is constrained to that movement speed for the rest of the move. If you have three obliterators you don't get to move each the best of 2d6". You roll for one obliterator, and the other two move at that speed. Same thing for assaults; it's a general principle of difficult terrain rolls.

Well, the issue is that if you can move the first model without hitting terrain, but all the other models have to move through difficult terrain then do they have to take a difficult terrain test.

GW managed to take what should be a simple and clear issue, and make it sound like the exact opposite is true. Even worse, it only does this when you read into the rule really closely, so on the surface it looks clear.

Note that I'm not saying anything one way or another. I'm just amazed that they managed to hide a gap like this in the rules so well, even if there isn't a gap at all.





However, here's another question that I've had come up before; does each individual model in the assaulting squad have to maintain coherency individually at the end of their move, or does coherency only matter once the entire unit has finished its assault move.

That is, you move Model A. Then you move model B. Does Model B have to be within 2" of Model A before you move Model C, or can you wait until all your models are moved to check coherency.

This is a rather subtle distinction that came up during a multi-charge.





On a mostly unrelated side note, if your opponent does something that you think is illegal, do not inform them by saying "please do that legally". It's just plain rude. You're implying they're intentionally cheating while they might just have made a mistake, or have misunderstood a rule.

[Lykum]

I think maybe a few people are misunderstanding my question. I will illustrate with my awesome MS Paint skills.

Blue Squad is assaulting.

Pic1. Closest blue guy assaults closest red guy. He does not go through difficult terrain.

Pic 2. If all other blue guys assault their closest respective red guy, they have to go through difficult terrain. However, I'm arguing that they do NOT have to assault the closest guy. Bullet 2 says IF POSSIBLE, they must move into BtB contact. Nothing says anything about what direction they have to go. Secondly, since NO difficult terrain test was taken for the first move, it is NOT possible for the rest of the squad to enter difficult terrain.

Pic 3. The remainder of the squad complies with bullets 3-5 on pg 34.

Pic 4. The end happy result prior to pile in.

This is just one scenario. If the blue player wanted his entire squad to move through the cover, then he would have to roll for it.

Understand that I play in a vacuum since (except for BoLSCON) I only ever play against one person. So I am interested to know 2 things. 1) How do you play this scenario and 2) is my logic totally out to lunch here.

[Lykum]

However, here's another question that I've had come up before; does each individual model in the assaulting squad have to maintain coherency individually at the end of their move, or does coherency only matter once the entire unit has finished its assault move.


Bullet 1 pg 34.
"...each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved"

[Lykum]

Here's the thing, the moving through cover for assault rules override the standard move rules in assault. Just because the rule appears 2-3 pages later, doesn't mean it is ignored until you need to roll it.

Assaulting through cover on p36 says to follow the rules for movement on p34. Page 34 should be the sole focus of this discussion.

[Tynskel]

Here's the thing, the end of the sub-section states that you will have engaged as many models as possible with as many assaulting models as possible.

All the sub set rules have your models move as far as possible. This is where p.36 is the key to the argument.

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."

1) plural, not singular, implying not just the first model moved, but this involves all models.
2) this states that your models will go through difficult terrain to satisfy the conditions of reaching an unengaged model.


Overall, it doesn't matter that your first model can make it without going through terrain, what matters is that if ANY model will go through terrain to take a path to reach an unengaged model. Because this is the case in your drawings, you must take a difficult terrain test.

Now, your drawing would be correct if the particular terrain was impassible--- this is where the word 'possible' comes in--- you cannot go through impassable terrain, so you must default to the other sub-set rules, which are to maintain coherency above all else if you cannot engage enemy models.

[Lykum]

Okay, so mostly this is hinging on what is possible and what is not. I'll be first to admit that this part of the argument is a bit of a stretch, but as I see it per p14 it is not possible for the unit to enter difficult terrain. The unit started outside difficult terrain, and the assaulter's 1st model determined that they were in assault range per the rules. "the unit moves as normal, but may not enter difficult terrain". For the sake of this argument, I am going to say that "may not" is the same as "not possible" in terms of rule-speak.

Disregarding all that, you are basically saying that if a model is within reach/range of an enemy not already in BtB contact they must engage that enemy. I'll buy that.

My next question is this, do you have to draw a straight line between the two models mentioned above to determine if difficult terrain is encountered? For example, the assaulter is 3" straight line distance to the closest enemy not in BtB contact. However, he can move within his 6" move constraint and still avoid difficult terrain. Now does the unit test for difficult terrain? The only constraints on the attacker's movement are in the 5 bullets and none of them constrain direction.

[DarkLink]

Here's the thing, the end of the sub-section states that you will have engaged as many models as possible with as many assaulting models as possible.

Right. They would have to try to go through difficult terrain to get into base contact.



All the sub set rules have your models move as far as possible. This is where p.36 is the key to the argument.

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."



Ok, yeah, this is what pg 34 is missing.

[Tynskel]

The rules on p.34 state move closest to closest, shortest possible route. That should answer your question.

[Lykum]

The rules on p.34 state move closest to closest, shortest possible route. That should answer your question.

Shortest possible route only applies to the first guy. There is no such restriction on the remaining models.

[Tynskel]

opps.

However, my previous statements still reinforce that if you could 'reach' a guy by moving through the terrain, at any moment, then the entire unit must roll difficult terrain test.

[Lykum]

opps.

However, my previous statements still reinforce that if you could 'reach' a guy by moving through the terrain, at any moment, then the entire unit must roll difficult terrain test.

Understood. The restrictions on the first guy are clear. The fact that a test is required if any model moves through difficult terrain is also clear. I am still not clear on the movement for the rest of the squad.

As I see it, there is no restriction on order of movement or route of movement. Additionally, there are only limited restrictions on who must assault who (it does not have to be the closest guy). So as long as I comply with the bullets on p34 in order of precedence, and I do not ACTUALLY go through difficult terrain with ANY model, then I'm not required to test.

Pg36 talks about if any model will have to move through difficult terrain then you test. I don't think it is always a foregone conclusion prior to the assault. Just because a potential path that 'reaches' my target intersects difficult terrain doesn't mean I have to take that path.

[Tynskel]

Units have a maximum movement rate.

This is an example of how complicated rules overlay less complicated rules--- the terrain check makes everything complicated, and must be considered at all times when assaulting a unit.

Page 34 uses the maximum movement rate to engage any enemy model with in reach. If you have an unengaged model within 6" of my model, I must move my model to engage him, as long as I stay incoherency. The rule assumes after you have moved your first model that there was no terrain, because you moved your first model, and there was no need to make a check.

Now we overlay the complicated rules:
If using the 'maximum' movement would take you through terrain to reach that unengaged model--- now you MUST take a terrain check.

It sounds weird, but basically, you gotta look at your unit, and guess whether or not your unit will have to move through difficult terrain to engage the enemy, because there will be a sorry look on your opponent's face when you move half your unit, and then realize you have to take a terrain check, and then fail the roll and move your models back--- because you will not move them back to exactly where they were before.

[Lykum]

Now we overlay the complicated rules:
If using the 'maximum' movement would take you through terrain to reach that unengaged model--- now you MUST take a terrain check.


My point is that the direction the model takes could vary regardless of the movement range.
Assume Model 1 is within 6" of models A and B after the first assault move is made. Model 2 is also within 6" of A and B. The path from 1 to A goes through difficult terrain. The path from 1 to B is clear. The path from 2 to B goes through difficult terrain and the path from 2 to A is clear. If 1 engages B and 2 engages A, then neither has moved through difficult terrain.

I am still using the most complicated ruleset here.

[Hapexamendar]

The rule about moving to base a model within 6" uses the phrase "if possible". This is a clear indication that movement constraints are applied to that move. If the first model didn't move through difficult terrain, and if no other model would move through difficult terrain (per page 36), then no possibility of moving through difficult terrain exists. I think page 36's reference to "if any model WOULD move through terrain" is widely misunderstood. It refers to a situation where the closest to closest model does not go through terrain, but a model farther back in the assaulting squad is already in terrain, so a test must happen. The assault steps are clearly laid out on pg 34 without the need for deciding what you THINK GW is intending. How does the "no holding back" crowd justify the entire assault failing because of some unseen model? Isn't that sorta "holding back"? Besides, it demands a crazy amount of time to propose, without moving, every possible move for an assaulting squad. A squad will have (A-1)! * (D-1) different move options on every assault, where (A-1) factorial is the number of attack options for A attackers and D is the number of defenders. The -1 is for excluding the closest to closest models. This number is an insanely large number. Large assault squads can drive this number to 10^25 easily. Also remember, you can't actually move any of the models while you are proposing these moves and you would have to agree with your opponent on the result. I've played both ways and it's surprising how smooth the RAW way is. It makes the half my squad is in cover so shooting at them stinks a little more balanced when if they are assaulted they are not in cover. It's kind of like from far away partially in cover is cover. Up close, got you!

[Hapexamendar]

Oh.. one more thing.. Three of my four armies have little or no assaulting units at all. If I were to have a bias, I would be trying to help my Tau some here. The steps are clearly laid out. The first model is physically moved and decides if the assault succeeds or fails, it's not some debate on the "theoretical" moves of models. Let's speed this game up some people!!

[DarkLink]

No, it is some theoretical debate on whether or not your models can make it. You can move every single model, and if the last one has to go through terrain to get into base contact then you must do so and may fail the entire charge. That's how the rules work.

[Hapexamendar]

Even if GW meant your theoretical setup to be the rules it's an unnecessary waste of time . By using "bulb" formations it isn't hard to just pull guys out of cover anyway, if one is out. It's beginner level strategy. It is time consuming though, especially if you fail. What was your process for marking original spots for pieces moved? Do you just eyeball it? What if another squad was coming up behind you for assault and you moved all your guys into the theoretical assault positions only to, at the last second, find out you needed a large roll for success. Now all that time is wasted, as is all the time to move everything back to "somewhere" near where they came from. I wonder if some players would just be tempted to fudge their guys just a bit away from that coming assault. With large assaulting squads this kills 10 minutes of game time or more and adds a lot of inaccuracy in model location. I still think the most important thing here is why do the step by step rules leave all of this out?

[wkz]

My point is that the direction the model takes could vary regardless of the movement range.
Assume Model 1 is within 6" of models A and B after the first assault move is made. Model 2 is also within 6" of A and B. The path from 1 to A goes through difficult terrain. The path from 1 to B is clear. The path from 2 to B goes through difficult terrain and the path from 2 to A is clear. If 1 engages B and 2 engages A, then neither has moved through difficult terrain.

I am still using the most complicated ruleset here.

This is actually true, and is legal.


One major thing to note that you seem to have confusion about: At the end of the day, note that the "must do" bullet points for moving charging models only occurs at the point you select the model for charging. And as long as you end up in a position that fulfills the "must do" bullet points, the game doesn't quite care HOW you did so.

After the straight-line charging of the first model have been performed (the only "forced-selected, forced-direction, forced-move" model in the entire charging sequence), for the rest of the models you're free to choose:

a) The order in which you select the models to move. You can move the last guy forward FIRST.
b) (if in range of several legal targets) You can select which enemy model to charge, regardless of range.
c) (if the target is close enough) You're free to twist and turn the charging path of the model to reach a legal position.
d) (if it is the last two bullet-points) You're free to select ANY position to end up, as long as it is legal.



For example, lets say I have a charging squad of 4 models. Model #1 has already charged 5" and is in base-to-base with the enemy squad, and Model #2 is within its 6" range of another model of the enemy unit being charged but will need to charge through difficult/dangerous terrain to do so. Model #3 and #4 is hanging back, both out of range to get into base-to-base...


You can:
a) Activate Model #2. This is basically biting the bullet, as Model #2 is within POSSIBLE range of being in base-to-base with an enemy unit, and thus must attempt bullet point #1 of assault rules: Must get into base to base with an unengaged enemy unit.

Whether or not it actually HAPPENS due to charging the enemy model through difficult and dangerous terrain is another matter.

Note that Dangerous Terrain rolls will affect Model #2 only (as per the rules for DangerousT)... but if you roll less than 5" for Difficult terrain... it applies to the entire unit (as per the rules for DifficultT). You'll have to go back in time to Model #1 failing the charge, and thus the whole unit fails the charge.



Or you can always:
b) Activate Model #3, to support Model #1 (bullet point #3 of assault rules: must support a base-to-base model if possible), and activate Model #4 to hang around (bullet point #4 of assault rules) because that's the only legal thing it can do... ... but put #3 and #4 both in FRONT of Model #2.

Another rule will kick in at this point: you cannot move through models that have already charged.

Thus, when you activate Model #2... you're now out of range of that pesky enemy model in difficult and dangerous terrain, because you'd have to walk AROUND models that have already "charged". The "evaluation" of the charging becomes "Move into base-to-base of an engaged unit if possible"... which is enemy model #1, out in the open.

Thus you can avoid going into difficult and dangerous terrain, and avoid possibly screwing up the charge.

(Note that option (b) is only possible if Model #3 can end up in a spot within coherency of Model #1. At the end of the day ALL the other rules, including the one about coherency, must be followed)

...
At the end of the day, there are a lot of tricks you can pull off for an assault. Hapexamendar above mentioned the "light bulb" (all except one out of range). Spacecurves provided another two or three, of which passive-aggressive assaults is only one of them. There's the congo-line (string out the assaulting units, so as to "pull" the defenders out of cover/position), denied IC (assault in such a way the IC on the other side of the enemy 10+ model squad cannot attack), DT pull (using a sacrificial unit to pull enemy models into dangerous terrain such that when the sacrificial unit finally dies, the enemy is in a bad spot), Hero vs Hero (charging a lesser-unit-count enemy unit such that the enemy IC cannot attack your unit, and the enemy unit cannot attack your IC) etc, etc...

If you're still confused, state a scenario, and I can provide diagrams...

[DarkLink]

Even if GW meant your theoretical setup to be the rules it's an unnecessary waste of time .

Sure, but this section of the forum is for discussing what the rules actually say. There's a difference between 'this is what the BRB says' and 'this is my group's houserules'.

But, yeah, I'm trying to think of a better way they could write the rules for 6th ed.

[Hapexamendar]

Right you are. The rules on pg 34 clearly state the assault succeeds or fails with the first model, so long as no other model is already in difficult terrain (per pg 36). All of these "no holding back", always test every models move 6", complicated layer over simple layer, are NOT in the actual rules. You have supposed they want you to do this because of one ambiguous sentence, I want you to see it doesn't even matter, if pieces are moved correctly. It is only a waste of playing time, with benefit to those who think the game is about gaining a tactical advantage merely by taking longer to move. I believe the RAW is better because it's a streamlining of the rules without affecting anything but the most basic model movement skills, which is supposed to be the point of 5th ed. I do thank you for your time though, I was curious how people are playing this.

[Tynskel]

'no holding back' has no definition. It is a descriptive term.
If you are going by RAW, you must only use the text that has meaningful terms.

In this case 'no holding back' could easily mean that individual models will go through terrain to reach their target. That doesn't mean they won't fall flat on their face. A failed charge represents this quite fine, the lead model tries to charge, could have made it, but ultimately is 'cut down' (ie, doesn't make the charge, the enemy unit shoots next round/counter charges.)

The rules state that if a model goes through terrain to reach its target, the unit must take a difficult terrain test. You must attempt to reach a model that is unengaged. If not, you must try to reach a friendly model that has engaged the enemy. If not, you must try to maintain coherency. If there are models that are 6" away, but are through terrain, you must attempt to reach them, because there is 'no holding back'.

[wkz]

Right you are. The rules on pg 34 clearly state the assault succeeds or fails with the first model, so long as no other model is already in difficult terrain (per pg 36). All of these "no holding back", always test every models move 6", complicated layer over simple layer, are NOT in the actual rules. You have supposed they want you to do this because of one ambiguous sentence, I want you to see it doesn't even matter, if pieces are moved correctly. It is only a waste of playing time, with benefit to those who think the game is about gaining a tactical advantage merely by taking longer to move. I believe the RAW is better because it's a streamlining of the rules without affecting anything but the most basic model movement skills, which is supposed to be the point of 5th ed. I do thank you for your time though, I was curious how people are playing this.

You may say that, but at the end of the day, there are too many variables. The fact of the matter is that not all players are experts in close combat positioning... and even if they are, there WILL be situations where the enemy unit is just too darn close, the player made that one "opps" mistake, crappy Difficult terrain and Run rolls earlier in the turn, Impassable terrain funneled you too much, etc, etc... that'll cause their Xth model to come into contact with Difficult Terrain and thus force it for the entire unit.

At the end of the day, you just cannot drop an entire set of rules just because you're "Awesome" and you "obviously play a perfect game, with perfect dice rolls, every game"... only for the fact your opponent is not as Awesome as you are. And thus will blunder into DT. And thus both you and him will need to know these rules (otherwise he can con the hell outta your naive self).

Unless you're Batman. At which point I'll point out this is the 40k universe, you're actually Konrad Curze, and thus you belong to Chaos and should be purged...