Dark Eldar Harlequins/ Eldar Harlequins

[HarlekissofDeath]

Question

With the new Dark Eldar codex coming out shortly, and if rumors are true then there might be an update to Harlequins in the Dark Eldar codex (unsure of the changes). But would I be able to use the Harlequin rules in the Dark Eldar codex if I were playing just a regular Eldar Army or do I have to wait for an actual Eldar codex update, and only use the Dark Eldar rules for Harlequins if I use them in a Dark Eldar army?

Thanks,

[Archon Charybdis]

That all depends on what you and your local gaming group agree on. In a tournament situation you'd have to use the stats and costs in your own codex.

[Old_Paladin]

As much as some people tend not to like it, you use the units in your own codex (unless other players allow you to use an 'updated/expanded' unit).

That's why Dark Angels, Black Templars, etc. are stuck with crappy stormshields and cyclone-missiles; chaos marines get generic lesser daemons; and Codex following space marines don't get tanks with overcharged engines.

[dark_phoenix]

As happy as I am that the dark eldar are getting an update, as an eldar player part of me will be annoyed if the harlequins in the de codex are better than the ones in the eldar codex. I mean, they are the same eldar after all are they not? Although I would allow that perhaps the harlequins that ally themselves with the dark eldar maybe more sadistic than the ones who ally with the craftworld eldar, unless all such alliances are temporary and the harlequins move around the webway assisting all eldar factions equally?

The only difference I would suggest is an alternative to the shadowseer, as we all know how dark eldar treat psykers.....

[dark_phoenix]

As much as some people tend not to like it, you use the units in your own codex (unless other players allow you to use an 'updated/expanded' unit).

That's why Dark Angels, Black Templars, etc. are stuck with crappy stormshields and cyclone-missiles; chaos marines get generic lesser daemons; and Codex following space marines don't get tanks with overcharged engines.
We have a black templars player in our group and we allow him to use any 'duplicated' wargear from the up to date marine codex as long as he pays the points from that codex for it. Also obviously he has to use all such wargear options, he can't pick and choose if one in the templar book is better.

[Lordgimpet]

Hmmm I know Harlequins are in the codex but never heard the rumor of them being updated..
that said it is quite possible the solitaires and mimes were added, but other than that I cant see any reason why they be different from the eldar versons.
but like the posters before me have said the only issue will be in tournaments where your stuck with whats in the specific codex.
however as both codexes share the same author there could be a very slim chance that it may state in the DE codex that Eldar plays have acsess to the Harlequins represented there.. but that is a wish at best

I guess we wait an see

[Archon Charybdis]

unless all such alliances are temporary and the harlequins move around the webway assisting all eldar factions equally?

That is what they do. That's the Harlequins whole shtick, they go anywhere Chaos needs to be fought, whether with Craftworlders, Corsairs, Exodites, or Dark Eldar.


that said it is quite possible the solitaires and mimes were added, but other than that I cant see any reason why they be different from the eldar versons.


On a per model basis Harlequins are kind of overpriced in the Eldar codex. The Shadowseer still allows the unit to be effective, but arguably you get more out of a squad of Banshees with a Serpent for not a whole lot more.

[eldargal]

It would be nice if the Dark Eldar Harlequin codex entry had a little box saying "These rules overrule those in Codex: Eldar", though I don't expect it will. Harlequins should all be the same, so this is possibly the one instance where I will ask opponents to let me use the new rules. As most my my opponents are scared of me, this should not pose a problem.

[Duke]

I haven't been following the de rumors very well, but I really hope that the de codex will allow you to run a harlequin army, oh seet joy of painting all those checkers!

Duke

[BuFFo]

Would I be able to use the Harlequin rules in the Dark Eldar codex if I were playing just a regular Eldar Army?

No, unless the Dark Eldar Codex gives you permission to do so.

[DrLove42]

Problem works the other way.

If the Harlies stay the same in DE, when the Eldar get a new codex in 18 months- 2 years whatever, they'll have to stay the same as well.

In Apoc you can use the DE harlies with an eldar force and call them allies.

[Tynskel]

As much as some people tend not to like it, you use the units in your own codex (unless other players allow you to use an 'updated/expanded' unit).

That's why Dark Angels, Black Templars, etc. are stuck with crappy stormshields and cyclone-missiles; chaos marines get generic lesser daemons; and Codex following space marines don't get tanks with overcharged engines.

Makes sense for Black Templars and Dark Angels---- but I think you are stretching things with Chaos....

The Daemon Codex doesn't have Generic Daemons--- there are many many many more gods than the Big 4, and the Daemon Codex is all about the Big 4.

Chaos Space Marines Legions do not always worship the 'Big 4', and therefore, other Daemons would show up: Hence the Lesser and Greater Daemons that are not 'marked'.

[Archon Charybdis]

If the various Space Marine codices, GW's most beloved of cash cows, have to deal with non-standardized equipment/stat lines I'm not sure why everyone thinks Eldar/DE will be immune.

[chromedog]

There is no such thing as a "dark eldar harlequin".
There is no bright, there is no dark, there is just "harlequins of the laughing god".

They are the third edge of the sword blade. They can go wherever they want in the webway - something that the other two cannot do - as only the harlequins know exactly where each path leads.

If harlies are in the DE codex, it will be the units NOT in the C:E codex. So no troupers, shadowseers or deathjesters. Solitaire and mimes are suitable though.

[eldargal]

That is an assumption I wouldn't feel comfortable making personally. As you say, Harlequins are Harlequins, the idea that those in the Dark Eldar codex would be different is silly. Why would the Solitaires and Mimes visit Commoragh without their Troupes?


If harlies are in the DE codex, it will be the units NOT in the C:E codex. So no troupers, shadowseers or deathjesters. Solitaire and mimes are suitable though.

[DrLove42]

Guess its a question we can ask this weekend :P

[Old_Paladin]

I think you are stretching things with Chaos....
The Daemon Codex doesn't have Generic Daemons--- there are many many many more gods than the Big 4, and the Daemon Codex is all about the Big 4.
Chaos Space Marines Legions do not always worship the 'Big 4', and therefore, other Daemons would show up: Hence the Lesser and Greater Daemons that are not 'marked'.

I guess my point was more towards that they should get an option of 5 types [although I didn't state this], you could take the cheaper 'generics' (as that would suit many renegages), or pay the points for named types where it fits better (such as the actual god-worshiping legionaires).

I understand when The Host of Blight renegades or the Red Corsairs get randon 'warp-souls' to fight with them; but why do World Eaters only get furies and Death Guard only get plauge zombies?

[DrLove42]

Can end this argument full stop.

Spoke with the guy who wrote the DE codex, he said they're identical in points, stats and wargear to the regular eldar "versions"

[miteyheroes]

Can end this argument full stop.

Spoke with the guy who wrote the DE codex, he said they're identical in points, stats and wargear to the regular eldar "versions"

Of course, that only stops the argument for a few years- when an updated C:Craftworld Eldar comes out the whole debate will start again!

[BuFFo]

Anyone who knew anything basic about Harlequins shouldn't be at all surprised that the Harlies in both Space Elf books are identical. I sure wasn't expecting anything different, lol.

[AirHorse]

If they are completely identical in points etc I am a little surprised. I wouldve expected a minor tweak to their rules just to update em a little, not to differentiate them or anything. Could possibly be a bad sign for craftworlders, perhaps they didnt want to make them different because a craftworld book is gonna be a long time coming :(

[eldargal]

Apparently Phil Kelly was put under quite a lot of pressure to keep them the same, possibly to avoid the whole 'why can't use DE Harlequins as CW Harlequins?!' fuss that would ensue.


If they are completely identical in points etc I am a little surprised. I wouldve expected a minor tweak to their rules just to update em a little, not to differentiate them or anything. Could possibly be a bad sign for craftworlders, perhaps they didnt want to make them different because a craftworld book is gonna be a long time coming :(

[Crevab]

Well that's stupid.

Stupid, arbitrary GW

[eldargal]

No, I think it is good. They are still effective CC troops, except now they have access to open topped skimmers that can have 5+ Inv saves. Any more would have just made them too good and diminished the importance of all the arousingly fantastic Wyches.


Well that's stupid.

Stupid, arbitrary GW

[DrLove42]

It doesn't suprise me they're the same.

But I see them in the book as a fluff reasons only. Compared to the stats for Incubi and Elite Wyches are they really competitive? Having a skimmer for them is simply great as that was always their biggest weakness

But new rules conundrum. Does the spirit seers Veil of Tears rule make the skimmer they're on invisible as well?

[Mal]

It would be nice if the Dark Eldar Harlequin codex entry had a little box saying "These rules overrule those in Codex: Eldar", though I don't expect it will. Harlequins should all be the same, so this is possibly the one instance where I will ask opponents to let me use the new rules. As most my my opponents are scared of me, this should not pose a problem.

I doubt such a ruling would be present, but if it was then I would definately dual purpose my dark eldar forces...

Archon - Farseer
Incubi - Wraithguard
Wyches - Banshees
Mandrakes - Striking Scorpions
Warriors - Guardians
Reavers - Jet bikes
Scourges - either Swooping Hawks or Dark Reapers, depending on how they are kitted out
Harlequins - Harlequins

Obviously i'd have to get myself some fire prisms/wave serpents and dire avengers, but pretty much everything else can be dual purposed.

[AirHorse]

Apparently Phil Kelly was put under quite a lot of pressure to keep them the same, possibly to avoid the whole 'why can't use DE Harlequins as CW Harlequins?!' fuss that would ensue.

I still think thats a bit rediculous, not tweaking them just because another old book has them. I know they still work ok on the battlefield but I still dont think they are quite right. What are they gonna do when the new craftworld book comes out? Leave them the same again? Just seems like by doing this they will cause even more trouble when they do update them a little in a future book :/

[Mal]

Some of the rumors floating around the mill say that they will be cheaper in the new DE book.

[Old_Paladin]

I still think thats a bit rediculous, not tweaking them just because another old book has them.

It's what the Company did with the space/chaos marine Predadors for a while.

It simply becomes one of those situations that they can never make people happy.
If they made the Dark Eldar version different, people will cry out "cheese/codex creep/Craftworlders get the shaft again/etc." and when they keep them the same people cry out "give us something new/Craftworlders get the shaft (GW won't be doing a new book)/this cannot work in the long run/etc."

[Archon Charybdis]

If they made the Dark Eldar version different, people will cry out "cheese/codex creep/Craftworlders get the shaft again/etc." and when they keep them the same people cry out "give us something new/Craftworlders get the shaft (GW won't be doing a new book)/this cannot work in the long run/etc."

Yeah, but it's generally taken for granted that, if not codex creep, a general overall power jump from 4th to 5th, does exist. I'd much rather have the DE Harlies be in line with the current power trend rather than be relatively overpriced and ineffective, just to not overshadow an identical unit in an old codex that's already overpriced and ineffective. Especially when the problem just rears it's ugly head next time the Eldar get updated.

[BuFFo]

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but SPARE ME the drama of "Oh, the DE Harlies are better than my Eldar Harlies" crap.

The only time I ever saw Harlies on the table top was when Eldar abused the living crap out of thier nigh invincible troop transports to get the Harlies into close combat.

SPARE ME the 'fluff' argument.

Dark Eldar have been trying to get 6+ armor save CC specialists into CC for 12 years on open top skimmers.

So yeah, codex units are balanced based on the ENTIRE army. Make my Raiders as invincible as Eldar transports, and THEN I'll entertain the notion that Harlies in a DE codex being 'stronger' than Harlies in an Eldar codex is IMBA/OP/Unfair.

For 12 years DE players had to deal with basic trooper guns being able to blow our vehicles up quite easily. We didn't have 3rd ed triple Wraithlord Cheese, or 4th ed Invincible Transport CC drop cheese, or 5th ed GOD mode transport cheese.

I am GLAD that it seems that the Harlies in BOTH books will be identical, but if the ones in the DE book get a boost, I'll take note of that when I wipe the tears off of all the local Eldar players faces in my area with my new codex.

[Old_Paladin]

SPARE ME the drama crap.
... I'll take note of that when I wipe the tears off of all the local Eldar players faces.

Haha, Buffo's back to his old self! :D
It took him longer then I expected to recover from the 'Dark Eldar are really real, and here's real Pics!' stroke he must have had.

[Crevab]

I'm going to have to stand by my "stupid, arbitrary GW" statement. There are many other things in the game that get updated over time that have (possibly) caused more discontent. Yet this one unit, just now being added to a second codex,must be the same? poppycock.

I'd think making unit copypasta would cause more in-game issues than tailoring it to the codex.

[eldargal]

I can see why you might think that, but it does make sense from a fluff perspective. Harlequins are Harlequins, to have two tiers of Harlequins in two different books would have been odd. There may be odd disparities between some equipment in various Marine codices, but the actual units are much the same.


I'm going to have to stand by my "stupid, arbitrary GW" statement. There are many other things in the game that get updated over time that have (possibly) caused more discontent. Yet this one unit, just now being added to a second codex,must be the same? poppycock.

I'd think making unit copypasta would cause more in-game issues than tailoring it to the codex.

[Adventorak]

I don"t really feel like bringing displeasure to anyone...but you can"t really compare DE harlequins and Eldar harlequins as if they would be the same.Same way you cannot compare a Wytch with a Banshee...their tactics and nature are completely different...and nature tells everything..because...even if the DE and Eldar are related in blood...that doesn"t mean that their harlequins will be the same...because...seeing that even in genes they are different seeing that DE psychic abilities are atrophied because of their depravity..so their way of pleasure,fighting..and purpose is very different.Saying that harlequins are sadistic is quite exagerated.Because harlequins are gracefull and artistic at the same time.Confuzing DE harlequin with Eldar harlequin is like confuzing a demented murderer with a detective

[Adventorak]

Because..if Eldar and DE having different ways of live only means...a different way of being..thinking and fighting.It is not just raw or barbaric or boring fighting like most people would be because the Eldar mastered or dominated...or refined the "darkness " from within their souls a long time ago.Why does a solitaire go to the City of the Dark Eldar alone ?...because .1.Harlequins perform...DE respect them and love their performance..those who are more artistic I mean.2.They can be as violent as the dark eldar(not orkish way).3.Why not kill a solitaire ?....he has no sign of weakness something that DE respect...and there is no pleasure in killing one harlequin like that looking at the performance of his mind and body.So..DE don"t care if harlequins are protectors of purity or some sort of anti evil for battling against chaos for as long as you show no weakness the DE WILL respect you.Plus that it would make the DE look like artless animals in front of the Eldar.And DE also want to show that even if they are demented..or mad or depraved they can have a more "refined" or artistic side...something that they always long for

[dannyat2460]

you dont know what harlequins are do you adventorak

they are the same between the craftworld, exerdites and dark eldar they are all the same guys that fight for all eldar

[armbarred]

Harlies are Harlies are Harlies... the troupe that fights alongside a Craftworld attacking a Chaos invasion of an ancient power site can well and truly be fighting alongside a kabal raiding an Imperial hive city next week. They go where the Laughing god is best served. They are truly neutral amongst the Eldar.

[miteyheroes]

There aren't Dark Eldar Harlequins and Craftworld Eldar Harlequins. The same groups of Harlequins go walking around between the DE and the CE.

[gARIGON]

The DE Harlies should not have been the same as the Eldar Harlies plain and simple.

Now you have a 4th Ed rule-base copied and pasted into a 5th edition codex. The problem inherent is that if Eldar get a 5th Edition update, a standard has already been set that would urge them to stay exactly the same. In the true spirit of progression, this is a big problem.

They're the same Harlies sure, but they aren't even the same edition.

[Demonus]

simple fix, if they are changed in next Eldar codex, FAQ the ones from DE codex.

[miteyheroes]

The DE Harlies should not have been the same as the Eldar Harlies plain and simple.

Now you have a 4th Ed rule-base copied and pasted into a 5th edition codex. The problem inherent is that if Eldar get a 5th Edition update, a standard has already been set that would urge them to stay exactly the same. In the true spirit of progression, this is a big problem.

They're the same Harlies sure, but they aren't even the same edition.

I fully agree with this! They should have had different rules, possibly with an online update so CE could use the rules published in DE. Like storm shields, cyclone missile launchers, etc.

[chromedog]

Harlequins SHOULD have the same stats in both CE and DE codices.

There are no Dark Harlequins, there are no 'light' harlequins. There are only harlequins.
They stand aside from the petty rivalries of the various groups.
They recruit from ALL eldar subgroups, be they Craftworlders, minions of Commoragh, Exodites, Corsairs, whatever.

[miteyheroes]

Harlequins SHOULD have the same stats in both CE and DE codices.

There are no Dark Harlequins, there are no 'light' harlequins. There are only harlequins.
They stand aside from the petty rivalries of the various groups.
They recruit from ALL eldar subgroups, be they Craftworlders, minions of Commoragh, Exodites, Corsairs, whatever.

Yes, but Ultramarines have different rules now than they did in 2nd Ed. They're the same chapter, but the rules have changed. Harlequins are now in an awkward position where their rules can never change- as they need to be the same in both codices.