Necron Rumours

[HsojVvad]

I am surprised I havn't seen this here yet. I saw this on the Warseer forums. This is my only source of information.


Release Date

They will be released during 2011. Most likely Summer 2011.


Rules & Codex

- Written by Matt Ward
- Complete overhaul of rules
- Much more "Immortal" theme, less "Terminator" (stickmonkey@40konline says: I took this to mean more organic based and asked, and was told "no, not organic, they will still be undying machines")
- WBB (at least as we know it) is out. It will be changed or replaced by FNP
- Phase out has been changed
- There will be several types of Lords. With different wargear options and special rules
- Gauss weapons rules will be changed
- The forces are going to change in the FOC a bit
- Flayed ones will have new rules changes but no new model
- Warriors will become one of the more all-around usefull troops
- "psychic power" -type upgrades for some units. These are actually "tech upgrades" with the same or similar rules as psychic powers.


Miniatures

- Forgeworld will be releasing a new Necron model sometime after games day UK. This was mentioned by forgeworld staff at games day Baltimore. New model will look kind of like a cross between a mechanical Trygon, and a Centipede. There is a rumour that this is, in fact, the Necromancer model.

Multi part plastic kits:
- Immortals. Immortals are on a large base; they are redesigned as larger, bulkier and more dynamic.
- Spyders. Spyders have 3 different builds on 60mm base.


Unconfirmed stuff (only one source so take with extra salt)

Necron2011@Warseer:
- The Necromancer multi-part plastic kit. The Necromancer is the central sell of the line expansion and has been the focus of much of the early design process. It has been through several incarnations (and names), but is essentially of the same principle as the Bone Giant for the Warhammer Fantasy range. It has a mechanised skeletal torso housing a suspended crystal, and will likely have a choice between two horrific weapons.

SpectralDragon@Warseer:
- Like the previous releases, there will be 3-4 new plastic kits, but possibly only 3-4 new metal kits. They are keeping *most* of the old line
- Necrons will move even further from marine statlines
- Warriors will be one of the more all around usefull troops in the game again
- Possible weapons platform vehicle
- Multiple people are involved in writing the book

CaptainJones@LO:
- Flayed Ones will be a Troop choice
- New HQs will be: Gold, Silver and Bronze level Lords
- Rules for ALL FOUR C’tans
- Most units in the necron army will be subject to the 'necron' special rule, in 5th ed. this grants them acute senses, deep strike, feel no pain an stubborn
- Phase out has been changed, apparently it will work on a unit level rather than on a whole army level, and a necron unit will phase out at any point where it fails a leadership test
- Gauss weapons now work in a similar manner to poisoned weapons in that they always wound on a fixed number

Lotoc_Sabbath@Warseer
- There will be immortals and flayed ones in plastic
- There will be a new vehicle and a MC sized creature
- Wraiths will be changed enormously
- Warriors will return being one of the best, maybe the best, troop in 40k, although their points will be increased.

Take with how much salt you like.

[eldargal]

Queue whining about Mat Ward in 3...2...1...:p

[HsojVvad]

queue whining about mat ward in 3...2...1...:p

lmfao.

[DrLove42]

Didn't that mechanical centipede already get proven false?

[heartbitt]

The original poster say so. It was a fake. But the rumourmongering pipes say the other way around. So... a fake's fake?

[HsojVvad]

The original poster say so.

I don't say anything. I am just posting what I say on another forum that someone else read and compiled to gether. :)

[heartbitt]

- New HQs will be: Gold, Silver and Bronze level Lords
- Rules for ALL FOUR C’tans
.

those two goes hand to hand, but I heard (and thought) because the new HQ's, C'tans will be dropped from GW line to become a much "bigger" Apoc/FW rules/minis

[heartbitt]

I don't say anything. I am just posting what I say on another forum that someone else read and compiled to gether. :)

As the original poster, I was referring to Mr. Mistery http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=9974, who published, filtered, whatever..., the cent photo.

[fuzzbuket]

YAY i wishlisted ages ago that thered be a big cron monster thing :D

GW listens to me

i feel all warm inside :P

DAMN what jervis dosnt troll BOLS
:P

[Necron_Lord]

Don't believe the part about the C'tan being codex SCs, and some of the other "changes" I'm taking with a grain of salt, but I like the fact that the rumor mill keeps churning for the 'crons. It looks like we have less than a year being the 40k whipping boy.

[eldargal]

From Stickmonkey on Warseer, Necrons (and Tau) 'still a long way off'.


Stickmonkey]Necrons
All Immortal based models being redone. Because Destroyers, Lords, etc. were supposedly based on the immortal "chassis" and that has been redone "bigger", its a cascade effect. However, skimmer body base not expect to change.

Immortals possible move to Troops choice.

New Elite options

Pariahs no longer 0-1

Additional C'Tan

plastic Tomb Spyder box to make TS or variant.

New fast attack MC

Pylon may make codex as heavy option

[Grailkeeper]

"Less Terminator"

[Duke]

I agree, less terminator (Arnold) and more cylon (number 6).

Seriously though I don't want to see transports, besides the monolith, I think it is a cool aspect that they don't have transports as such.

Duke

[Unlighted]

I have two major hopes for the Necron update.

Necrons=Tough army to take down. Its fluffy in that they are supposed to keep coming at you and the only way to reliably take them down is through heavy weapons. I don't want an "I win automatically" tough army, but at least make people work for it.

Shooting and/or close combat- I'd really like to see either more AP2 (AP1 would be better, but I won't be greedy) weaponry or at least rending for shooting. Necrons really suffer if they face 2 full Terminator squads because they have to rely on volume of fire to take them down. If Necrons are supposed to be the masters of technology why does all the other races have better weapons both at range and close combat? The only superior close combat weapon Necrons have is the warscythe and only the Lords and Pariahs can use it.

[Brass Scorpion]

Queue whining about Mat Ward in 3...2...1...:pHilarious and salient.

That round of rumors sounds plausible and fun. I hope a good chunk of it turns out to be true. I bought a pile of Necron plastics for about 50% off single box set list prices when they had Apocalypse deals a couple years ago and I've been planning to jump on it when a newer army book drew near. It sounds like my hobby project for next summer may be set now.

[DarkLink]

I agree, less terminator (Arnold) and more cylon (number 6).


Do you really want to start and argument about Female Necrons?

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Lol why not?? Why do they all look male??

Seriously though,i agree, not that i play them, but i enjoy that army that is Necrons. Id like to see better improvements, drop the Phase Out rule, give them a MC, bring out the model from Forgeworld for GW release, and allow more CC and varient troops. Dont just allow standed necrons for fire support, give variety.
We all like variety in our armies, give them lots of units, maybe a flyer, or jump pack version, hey every other army i think has jump pack troops (Eldar, Orks, SoB, SM's, Nidz, Tau, maybe not IG).
Also maybe it would be nice to hear from GW too, seriously want us to stay interested in your company...simple, tell us what we want to know....whats coming out so we get excited and start saving for your new releases.

[eldargal]

I'm all for more female models but I really don't want to see female Flayed Ones.

[MarneusCalgar]

Additional C´Tan??

The Dragon, finally??

[isotope99]

I'd like to see a cheap mini-monolith included and removal of the no chain teleporting rule so that you can set up a network of teleport gates and have units pop in one and then out of another.

This would offset the slow nature of the necrons and make them more mobile, but the small monoliths would be easier to kill. Say, AV11 & living metal.

Actually, I'd like to see this for dark eldar webway gates too.:p

I'd also make the phase out rule on a per squad basis rather than for the whole army, or ditch it altogether, as this currently ruins the tension of a close fought game. This happened to me recently, when I basically won what would have been a close fought game by accident.

[DrLove42]

Additional C'tan seems to contradict everyone else saying they were being removed for apoc units only.

And if the dragon truely is at the centre of mars (as the general consensus seems to be) its unlikely we'd see him without a major shift in the 40k universe storyline.

[Melissia]

Queue whining about Mat Ward in 3...2...1...:p

Matt Ward, huh? Now I REALLY hope they forget to include Sanctuary 101, lest the few dozen Sisters killed there be turned into a few hundred (or thousand), and instead of them being caught in their beds without armor and weapons, they're killed all while fully ready for battle.

What? You were basically asking for it.

[eldargal]

Oh, I don't know if it would be as bad as that, he isn't Goto.


Matt Ward, huh? Now I REALLY hope they forget to include Sanctuary 101, lest the few dozen Sisters killed there be turned into a few hundred (or thousand), and instead of them being caught in their beds without armor and weapons, they're killed all while fully ready for battle.

What? You were basically asking for it.

[Mr. Smith]

All I'm saying is that those C'Tans, if they're in the book, better make Mephistan and the Sanguinor cry because they wish they were as badass as these guys.

[eldargal]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Necron_Tomb_Stalker.html

Damned elaborate hoax.;)

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

LOVE it...techno-lovecraftian robot centipede from hell.

I'm SO buying two for my necron army :) cant wait for this!

[Cyberscape7]

Tbh if they do take the c'tan out they will just make one of the types of lord be like an adept of one of the ctan.
e.g. Dragon adept will grant necrons within 6" +1 on vehicle pen. or something along those lines.

[DadExtraordinaire]

I am surprised I havn't seen this here yet. I saw this on the Warseer forums. This is my only source of information.

Take with how much salt you like.

Late Spring / Early Summer Q2.....

[Render Noir]

I have a tough time believing any rumor that suggests a stat line change. Look at all the new books over the past 2 years, both 40k and Fantasy - it doesn't happen. A complete overhaul could mean something as drastic as what many people wish listed or simply an much needed update to make the Necrons more inline with 5th edition. Either will be a large task that will meet much scrutiny.

[Melissia]

Yeah, and we never thought we'd see flying Land Raiders too.

[Old_Paladin]

I have a tough time believing any rumor that suggests a stat line change. Look at all the new books over the past 2 years, both 40k and Fantasy - it doesn't happen.

Actually, this isn't true. There are units that have had Stat changes.
The new Dark Eldar Archon will go from WS/BS:6 to WS/BS:7 (and may have higher attacks and/or leadership).

I think Minotaurs/Rat Ogres/Tyranid Warriors/Hive Tyrants all had slight stat changes (or at least special rules that effectively change their stats and/or play style).

When you have very old established stat-lines (like human or space marine), they are unlikely to change. When it comes to things like Necrons, people aren't going to be upset if they changed around (maybe even have a unique looking stat-line); there's no fundimental 'Cron' statistics.

[Render Noir]

I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Yes, some individual units get changes in their stat line, but you do not see a sweeping change like every Troop choice is +1 TH, or even a reduction in WS or BS. Most changes are, as you described, done by changing the special rules.

That being said, you make a great point that Necrons are not that established and lend themselves for more of a shake up than Space Marines or IG

[Wiggins]

As a Necron player, one of my main complaints is that I don't want to be a Space Marine. I would love a few more changes to the stats.

Other main complaints, are that without stubborn or fearless (preferably stubborn), or some other way to avoid sweeping advance (such as auto teleport on breaking) we don't survive combats the way we used to when the codex was written in 3rd edition. It may surprise you to know that Necrons were never meant to absolutely suck in combat, just for that to not be their focus.

Also, I too do not like the whole "terminator rip off" aspect. I love the rules for We'll Be Back, particularly in how simple they are to understand and yet how difficult it makes tactical planning for both players, not knowing which models may get up to fight next turn, but I really don't like the name.
For this reason I also live in fear of Slow and Purposeful. This is not a very Necron rule. Necron armies have so far always been surprisingly fast, not unlike Wood Elves in fantasy.

Yes, Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are Immortals on jetbikes. If you disagree because in one photo caption they are called "warriors", LOOK AT THEM! Clearly they should be T6.

Even if they are made more survivable than a space marine, Necron Warriors are never going to do the same amount of damage as a tactical squad. They should cost less, not more.
This would also enable the Necrons to be used as a horde army, which many of us have wanted to do. If the new codex should make this actually effective, that would be joyous.

Please please please do not give us sergeants or special weapons upgrades. Every model in every unit should remain the same as those purchased with him. Not Space Marines, GOT IT!

Bigger unit sizes, particularly for Wraiths, would be appreciated.

Try and have more fun when writing the rules for Pariahs, Wraiths and Flayed Ones in particular. They have a lot of scope for rewriting and changing, particularly as few players have really used them enough for the past decade.

Think about it, Flayed Ones are Necron's CRAZY PEOPLE, who think it's a good use of time to skin their enemies and wear them, and like to come up from below the ground and yell BOO! This would not "phase" (aha pun) many if any of their enemies in the 40k univers, so why not give them some psycho crazy type special rules rather than fear causing ones.

Wraiths phase through at the edge of existence. Surely they should all count as having phase weapons in close combat, or be able to do a special phase combat move, not unlike Trolls in fantasy. Other than that and larger squad sizes, they don't need changing much.

Pariahs are the future of the Necron army, the Necron Warrior 2.0. Think about that for a minute.
Then think about this. Every one of them is a re-purposed Culexus Assassin.

The necrons/c'tan are tuning the blanks for a different purpose than the imperials. The Culexus has had his aura tuned to make enemies want to ignore him, and goes around terrorising psykers, armed with anti-psyker weaponry. Are the pariahs designed to do the same? Not really. While I trully like the idea of making the pariah more like the culexus, I'd like to make a stark contrast. Where the culexus avoids attention, the pariahs should draw it. They should effectively bring back priority tests for the army; "Oh for the emperor KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT"

Here's my idea for a Pariah special rule; Abomination;
Opponents who wish to act in any way in the shooting phase and can see a unit of pariahs, must fire at the nearest unit of pariahs instead unless they pass a leadership test. If they have no weapons (for instance if they were trying to run) or their weapons that they were going to fire are out of range or would not affect pariahs (for instance psykers using abilities that aren't shooting attacks) they do nothing in that shooting phase, but count as having targeted the pariahs for the purposes of assault. If they pass their leadership test, they act as normal.

[Duke Rich]

Yeah, pretty much everything Wiggins said.
When I first started playing 40k, I picked up Necrons because my friend who was telling me about all the armies said "They're basically metal warriors that kill stuff, then if they get killed, get back up and kill even more stuff." That is what sold me, they get back up (I blame the fact I played a Minion Master Necromancer on Guild Wars at the time, but this is irrelevant).
Later on whilst sat at home, flicking through the Codex and reading up online about them, I found out about the general "they're in stasis, blah blah blah, there's a shed ton of them waiting to kill us all" side of their lore, this cemented my love of them.

Game wise I think swapping out WBB for FNP is a sound idea (although a bit annoying as now most BA armies have it), but deep down inside I'll be mad as hell. Also, I would be over the moon if Necrons became more horde or the option to be more horde than they are at the moment, what with more Tomb Worlds and things being uncovered and what-not.

All the LD test abilities we have seriously need changing as well, in fact, either all the one's in 40k need to be, or just lower/change how leadership works, pretty much everything is LD 9/10 basic or has some special character/person within range to make them not give a damn about giant metal skeletons wearing their mates skin or phasing in and out of time and space.

[C'Thulhu]

Has anyone else been seeing these rumors? They're generally side by side with Tau rumors

"Necrons
All Immortal based models being redone. Because Destroyers, Lords, etc. were supposedly based on the immortal "chassis" and that has been redone "bigger", its a cascade effect. However, skimmer body base not expect to change.

Immortals possible move to Troops choice.

New Elite options

Pariahs no longer 0-1

Additional C'Tan

plastic Tomb Spyder box to make TS or variant.

New fast attack MC

Pylon may make codex as heavy option"

Honestly, a lot of this sounds like crap. Immortals to troop choice makes no sense, if anything it'd be flayed ones. The additional C'Tan is iffy as well because that would be a huge addition to more than Necron fluff. The new MC is the Tomb Stalker. And the Pylon bit is utter BS. I'm not even sure there has ever been an Apocalypse piece that has moved from Apocalypse to regular 40K

[Drew da Destroya]

Honestly, a lot of this sounds like crap. Immortals to troop choice makes no sense, if anything it'd be flayed ones. The additional C'Tan is iffy as well because that would be a huge addition to more than Necron fluff. The new MC is the Tomb Stalker. And the Pylon bit is utter BS. I'm not even sure there has ever been an Apocalypse piece that has moved from Apocalypse to regular 40K

Well, steady on there a bit. Some people probably thought that Nob Bikers (or Deff Dreds, for that matter) would be preposterous as troops, but a Warboss (or Mek) lets you bring one unit of them as such. The rumor may not be putting Immortals permanently in the Troops section, but under certain situations (Say, a Gold-Level lord lets you bring 1 unit of Immortals as Troops).

Plus, the Trygon, Valkyrie, and Vendetta were all Apoc-Only units previously... so, there is that. I dunno about the Pylon being a Heavy choice myself, just because it seems odd for there to be a totally stationary choice, but I don't think it's totally impossible.

[Lockark]

Actually, this isn't true. There are units that have had Stat changes.
The new Dark Eldar Archon will go from WS/BS:6 to WS/BS:7 (and may have higher attacks and/or leadership).

I think Minotaurs/Rat Ogres/Tyranid Warriors/Hive Tyrants all had slight stat changes (or at least special rules that effectively change their stats and/or play style).

When you have very old established stat-lines (like human or space marine), they are unlikely to change. When it comes to things like Necrons, people aren't going to be upset if they changed around (maybe even have a unique looking stat-line); there's no fundimental 'Cron' statistics.

Just also wanted to throw out there the Oygrn had a major satline change in the new guard book.

[Cyberscape7]

Plus, the Trygon, Valkyrie, and Vendetta were all Apoc-Only units previously... so, there is that. I dunno about the Pylon being a Heavy choice myself, just because it seems odd for there to be a totally stationary choice, but I don't think it's totally impossible.

Exactly. Just look at the drop pod. Same principle.

[DarkLink]

Here's my idea for a Pariah special rule; Abomination;
Opponents who wish to act in any way in the shooting phase and can see a unit of pariahs, must fire at the nearest unit of pariahs instead unless they pass a leadership test. If they have no weapons (for instance if they were trying to run) or their weapons that they were going to fire are out of range or would not affect pariahs (for instance psykers using abilities that aren't shooting attacks) they do nothing in that shooting phase, but count as having targeted the pariahs for the purposes of assault. If they pass their leadership test, they act as normal.

I like the basic idea of that rule. The way you have it worded is a little OP (depending on cost of course), as you could be forcing, say, Long Fangs on the other side of the board to waste their shooting. But I think a 24" range wouldn't be over the top. All those Ld tests would get a little annoying if it covered the whole table.

I would drop the second part of the rule, though. Making it completely impossible for any unit to ever assault anything but the Pariahs if they just have LOS to them is a little unreasonable, even if it is on a failed Ld test.

Alternatively, you could drop the range even more but make it more powerful; "all units within 12" of the Pariahs must take a Ld test. If they fail, they fall back, and can only regroup when they are more than 12" away from any Pariahs. If they pass, they must attempt to shoot the Pariahs. Fearless models are immune to this rule."



That would make Pariahs a great unit for distracting your opponent. You could hide them until just the right moment, then jump them out and force your opponent's uber-deathstar to go after them instead of a better target.

[bb-dawg]

"all units within 12" of the Pariahs must take a Ld test. If they fail, they fall back, and can only regroup when they are more than 12" away from any Pariahs. If they pass, they must attempt to shoot the Pariahs. Fearless models are immune to this rule."

That would make Pariahs a great unit for distracting your opponent. You could hide them until just the right moment, then jump them out and force your opponent's uber-deathstar to go after them instead of a better target.

I second this opinion. Pariah's need to have some form of special rule to account for their place in the fluff as a newer generation of warrior.

On a side note, it's gonna be sad to see WBB go away, but I can understand making Crons' more inline with the current rulebook using FNP. At least we'll have new plastics to go with the new codex...

[mcmuffin]

i think that something like this would work, from the necron codex i am writing. they should be a major anti-psyker weapon.

Necron Pariah............................................ .............................................35pts per model

WS 5
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 1
I 4
A 2
Ld 10
Sv 3+
5 4 5 5 1 4 2 10 3+

Unit Composition: 5-10 Pariahs
Unit type: Infantry
Wargear: Pariah Pattern Warscythe
- The Pariah pattern warscythe is different from those wielded by Necron Lords. It incorporates a built in Gauss flayer and has two blades, one at either end. Pariah pattern warscythes grant +1 attack in close combat, exactly as if the user was equipped with two close combat weapons.
Special Rules: Fearless, Feel no pain, Psychic abomination
- Psychic abomination: No Psyker may attempt to use psychic powers against pariahs, in addition, any psyker who attempts to make a psychic test within 12” of a unit of Pariahs must make his psychic test at half his leadership value, if he fails, he suffers Perils of the Warp.

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

Why switch out the built in Gauss Blaster for a flayer? If you're going to do that, you might as well get rid of any built in weapon, as no one would use it. There's no difficult choice to make with a built in flayer, just run everywhere and ignore it all together.

[eldargal]

Necron Rumours

Another take since the first collection devolved into wishlisting and got kicked out of Roumours forum. Please handle this thread with care and it will serve us all longer than the previous one.

Release Date

Based on multiple (sometimes conflicting) sources they will be released during 2011. Most likely Summer 2011.


Rules & Codex - Stuff mentioned by more than one source

- Written by Matt Ward
- Complete overhaul of rules
- Much more "Immortal" theme, less "Terminator" (stickmonkey@40konline said: I took this to mean more organic based and asked, and was told "no, not organic, they will still be undying machines")
- WBB (at least as we know it) is out. It will be changed or replaced by FNP
- Phase out has been changed, possibly working for individual units instead of whole army
- There will be several types of Lords. With different wargear options and special rules
- Gauss weapons rules will be changed, possibly to rending
- The forces are going to change in the FOC a bit
- Flayed ones will have new rules changes but no new model
- Warriors will become one of the more all-around usefull troops
- Whole army will benefit from Stubborn universal rule
- "psychic power" -type upgrades for some units. These are actually "tech upgrades" with the same or similar rules as psychic powers.
- New Monstrous Creature
- New Vehicle


Miniatures - Stuff mentioned by more than one source

Multi part plastic kits:
- Immortals. Immortals are on a large base; they are redesigned as larger, bulkier and more dynamic.
- Spyders. Spyders have 3 different builds on 60mm base.


Newest Rumours - Quoted directly

Necrons smell.

[Cyberscape7]

Matt Ward?
Whilst I have nothing against Wards SM dex I am a little bit worried. Lets face it, the new dex is probably going to have some battle references, most of which the necrons will win. But, unless they choose Damnos, There will be one page dedicated to how the ultramarines pummeled the necrons into the ground. As for the other rules mentioned, Matt Ward has made some decent choice if thats the case.
So I rekon this new dex is going to be solid rules, but the backround fluff could be a bit of a dissapointment

[Pidoran]

I would like to see a Necron Doctrine. Each force is consisted of a God that created them and the Bonus that being with that God grants (Think Chaos types for examples) If you want to use Both Ctans as examples: grant each one with specific army only abilities, weapons and make them exclusive towards that "C'tan God Example, A unit of warriors who are aligned with the Nightbringer, (For the Added points they could generate a lightning field that grants a +5 over save or inflict a St3 AP6 hit. A unit with a Mark of the Deciever can purchase the devine gift of accurate deep striking. (You would only roll a D6 instead of a 2d6 for all scatter rolls. Just don't give them any Psychic abilities. Make them more technology abilities.

For Standard Hq's. I would love to see GW make a plastic conversion kit for the Lord. Like the Plastic Chaos Lord/Librarian Box. Plenty of bits and options. Also you should have a Necron Only, "Build your Own Lord" There are many Campaigns out there that grant Army Specific characters bonus for taking them. I think that it would be awesome to have the option to build your own see that Necrons are the only army allowed to do so. Just about every other Codex has many named characters and leaders. Necrons have only 2 and they are expensive as Hell if you are forced to take one in a campaign. I only like to use the C'tan in special games but that is me. I don't like the idea of having the C'tans only available for Apocolypse Games as some of the other posts I have been reading have stated they may be changed to in the next codex.

Necrons Need 1 New Troop Choice or replace flayed ones as a Troop Choice. Also, the Scarab swarms should be a troop choice as well. Scarabs should not take up any slot but can be fielded in Unlimited Units. Scarab Swarms should still not be able to hold objectives.


Pariahs (Should also be made into plastic, I love my $150 10 man unit ;( ) since they do not count as Necron army totals for Phase out, they should be the only Selection to have Fear No Pain, Give them "frag" grenade like weapons for fighting in cover and be at least inititive 4. (They are Elites and should be equal to Space Marines as far as initiative goes) They should be able to deepstrike or "Teleport" in. Eliminate the 0-1 choice limit. They are Necrons 2.0 and should have the next Necron Generation Technology available only to them.

Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers should be combined into one Fast Attack Slot. Destroyers should have 2 wounds, can be upgraded to Heavy Destroyers for the added points needed to buy the Heavy Destroyer Weapon.

Wraiths should have Rending added. (Also made into plastic, 3 per box would be awesome) Maybe they can have the Eldar Warp Spider Phasing rule while moving. Being able to shift phasing just sounds kewl to me. Also good fluff to tie in with the Eldar/Necron Ancient war

Tomb Spyders should have their for each swarm produced roll rule eliminated. (The main reason I don't take Spiders is because the chance of inflicting wounds just to produce a scarab swarm) They also should be able to be upgrade to a number of weapons, a Famer, Staff of Light, claw etc. They can only take one or the other but can take each one twice if they choose to. Give the Spiders BS3, WS3, IN1 and have a base 4 attack (minus 1 for each weapon upgraded still should apply) It can also produce 1 scarab swarm when not in hth on any given turn. No rolling for wounds stated but they can only produce to a maximum of 3 scarab bases per spider and must remain in 2" coherency.

Have an "Oblisk" like vehicle as a heavy chioce. Have it be a living metal transport/teleporter. Or even a Necron Warrior Fatory. D3 Necron Warriors are constructed each turn. AV 11,11,11

Overall, I see the necrons being an Elite force, Not to big but packs a punch type of army. I do agree that they need to eliminate the Necron phase out rule. And the topper is that the Entire army should be Fearless. They are robots and should be immune to any fear.

I know that I am basically talking out of my *** by wishing for these changes but there are so may viable options and upgrades for the Necrons that can be done. I don't want them to be the, "Ultimate Cheesy" army but a few more options would make all the difference in the world. I just picked up the new Dark Eldar Codex and just reading the Summary page with all the options, weapons and characters they have makes me wish that GW can give us Necron players 1/3 of what they get.

1c for my thoughts and I threw in my 2c

[Maelstorm]

If left as-is for Necrons, FNP means that ANY ranged AP 1, 2 weapons (Las-Plas-Melta-etc) will put any Necron down permanently with no save. Basically anything in the Space Marine armoury heavier than a bolter or flamer.

Most weapons in the AP 1, 2 list also have a longer range than ALL Necron weapons (even the Heavy Destroyer), so no way to fire back and no dedicated transport to protect them - just shuffle into 24" gauss range while being picked-off. 10 Billion years old, masters of the universe and they can't come up with a single heavy weapon with longer range than a simple space marine scout heavy bolter? Really?

Alas, still no AP 2 weapons so Terminators will only die to poor armor rolls (16% chance) or the most expensive single-shot, short-ranged Destoroyer variant. Mathhammer - - It will still take Necrons 50+ wounds to put down a 5 man group of Terminators.

Attribute it to lazy writing at GW, Necrons Warriors with FNP wil be a very low-end Blood Angels Death Company - oh, with less attacks, no weapon choices and initiative 2 and as an added bonus, phase out on a unit basis! Woohoo!! :-/

I fought against new Codex Space Wolves last night. His 1500 point roster included 4 twin-linked las cannons (Land Raider+ 2x Las-Razorbacks), 4 Long Fang las cannons and 4 Long-Fang missile launchers, plus terminators with an Assault Cannon plus a Land Speeder with Melta and an Assault Cannon. 6 turns of being Las/Kraked to peices. With FNP instead of WBB, the game would have been a complete route in 3 turns. Everything (except the Assaultcannon) had longer range than my Destroyers, and double/triple the range of all other Gauss. If you think FNP is better than WBB, please set the crack-pipe down and step away from the keyboard.

As a start for 2011
* Make all Necrons Fearless
* Give them something that can actually penetrate armour beyond range 24" (if orcs can figure out how to make a heavy weapon with 60" range, why can't a C'tan "god" figure it out?) Do heavy Destroyers have to be very short-ranged single shots? It's more cost effective and LONGER RANGED to have a Laz-Razorback.
* Make Paraihs/Flayed Ones/Wraiths more than just expensive dust collectors on the shelf.
* The C'tan "gods" should at least be the equivalent of 250 point Mehpiston cheese in combat. Mathhammer, Mephiston will always kill 5 Nightbringers (1,800 points) in a row before falling.

PLEASE don't grab the universal remote, select FNP and then call it re-written. And don't tell me that adding a 100 point HQ with 100 points in options will fix FNP, I'm sure they'll neuter any FNP HQ "bonus" with a 12" HQ range so your destroyers are left racing away uncovered and your warriors are stuck cowering in a 24" diameter pie plate.

End of FNP rant.....

[Melissia]

Uh, what?

AP3 weapons don't ignore FNP. Nor does an autocannon ignore FNP on a T4 model. And if they're forced to use plasma guns/cannons to kill your Necrons, I think the mission is accomplished because that's both expensive pointswise AND dangerous to the user.

I think he doth protest too much.

[isotope99]

Mathhammer, Mephiston will always kill 5 Nightbringers (1,800 points) in a row before falling.



Worst Mathhammer ever :D, but the anomaly is that C'tan don't have eternal warrior which they clearly should and almost certainly will in any new dex.

[Defenestratus]

C'Tan also only take two wounds from each unsaved force weapon wound.

I don't know if the mathhammer stacks up in this case... We just did a Mephiston vs. Deceiver this past weekend and it took 4 rounds but Deceiver won with 1 wound left.

[Maelstorm]

Quote from thie BOLS website...

Mephiston Vs. Nightbringer

Round 1:

Nightbringer uses Etheric Tempest. No effect.
Mephiston uses Transfixing Gaze. 58.3% chance of success.

If Transfixing Gaze succeeds.
Mephiston gains the initiative.
Mephiston stikes. 4.45 hits.
Mephiston wounds. 3.71 wounds.
Nightbringer saves. 1.86 wounds taken.
Force weapon passes. Nightbringer dies.
Mephiston wins. Wounds remaining: 5/5.

If Transfixing Gaze fails.
Mephiston gains the initiative.
Mephiston strikes. 3.33 hits.
Mephiston wounds. 2.78 wounds.
Nightbringer saves. 1.39 wounds taken.
Force weapon passes. Nightbringer dies.
Mephiston wins. Wounds remaining: 5/5.

Cost Percentage = 69%

[Melissia]

Still doesn't explain your lack of understanding of the FNP rules :P

[isotope99]

Quote from thie BOLS website...

Mephiston Vs. Nightbringer

Round 1:

Nightbringer uses Etheric Tempest. No effect.
Mephiston uses Transfixing Gaze. 58.3% chance of success.

If Transfixing Gaze succeeds.
Mephiston gains the initiative.
Mephiston stikes. 4.45 hits.
Mephiston wounds. 3.71 wounds.
Nightbringer saves. 1.86 wounds taken.
Force weapon passes. Nightbringer dies.
Mephiston wins. Wounds remaining: 5/5.

If Transfixing Gaze fails.
Mephiston gains the initiative.
Mephiston strikes. 3.33 hits.
Mephiston wounds. 2.78 wounds.
Nightbringer saves. 1.39 wounds taken.
Force weapon passes. Nightbringer dies.
Mephiston wins. Wounds remaining: 5/5.

Cost Percentage = 69%

I won't deny that Mephiston's combination of psychic powers makes him awesome against any single foe that doesn't have eternal warrior, but this is still terrible mathhammer. In a duel between two characters you need to use the probability not the averaging method. Mephiston still rules with an 85 or 91% chance to fell the nightbringer, depending on whether he gets the charge.

[Maelstorm]

Still doesn't explain your lack of understanding of the FNP rules :P

Actually it explains my use of the "EDIT" function to correct my mistake 5 minutes after your note. :D

[Maelstorm]

I won't deny that Mephiston's combination of psychic powers makes him awesome against any single foe that doesn't have eternal warrior, but this is still terrible mathhammer. In a duel between two characters you need to use the probability not the averaging method. Mephiston still rules with an 85 or 91% chance to fell the nightbringer, depending on whether he gets the charge.



Not my numbers - The Mathhammer is from the Bell of Lost Souls page on Mephiston :cool:

[Maelstorm]

The point of my original post was to point out that it will be a shame to see GW wimp-out and give the Universal Special Rule "Feel No Pain" - the same thing they are pandering in each new codex. The one thing that makes a Necron army feared is now being made available to IG, SM, Orcs, DE....

FNP will give a speed bump before watching necrons get swept in CC. FNP allows opponents to permanently remove any Necron at range with weapons easily added to any SM squad of any size, even scouts. Using FNP in the game I played last night would have had up to 16 Necrons falling during the shooting phase without saves every turn - from weapons with much greater range than the best Necron weapons. With WBB I was able to get most of my guys back up each turn and continue fighting.

[DarkLink]

In a duel between two characters you need to use the probability not the averaging method.

Both methods are perfectly valid. They just tell you slightly different things. Averaging gives you the expected outcome (how many rounds it will take, how many wounds the winner will have left, etc). Probability gives you the likelihood of one guy beating another, but gives you none of the other info there.

[Old_Paladin]

This whole FNP will make 'Crons weaker is a load of bull.
They are so statistically similar that it makes very little difference, but saves a lot of time.

The only ranged weapons that WBB works against, and FNP doesn't, is plasma weapons and rending hits (so 1/6th of the hits from assault cannons and snipers).
Since most people already prefer things like missiles, melta, typhoon/cyclones and las because of their high strength/multiple roles; I really doubt many people will switch out any of that for plasma.

So, you're probably looking at nothing more then an extra 3 deaths to shooting (typically) if FNP is used (heck, I bet the codex will even include an item for the Lord that lets you take FNP, even against intant death, AP 1/2, etc.).

[DarkLink]

Well, WBB you only ever need to take once per turn. You can take a dozen assault cannon shots to the face, and ignore them on a single 4+ even if you fail all your armor. With FNP, though, you still have to make a separate 4+ for each wound.


That said, any minor nerf to WBB will almost certainly be canceled out by the removal of phase out.

[Maelstorm]

Using FNP I would have lost 7 of 10 Destroyers in the first 2 rounds last night against Space Wolves, using WBB, all but 2 got back up. 8 Destroyers at the start of turn 3 using WBB vs 3 Destroyers in turn 3 with FNP. Please don't say it doesn't make a difference and sweep it under the rug - statistically speaking - I am a Sr. statistical engineer. FNP is just an easy cop-out for GW fold everything into the Universal Special Rules, every Codex will end up with a way to get FNP - Welcome to vanilla.

If the writers at GW add anything to a Necron HQ that allows a FNP to be equal to the original WBB against ranged weapons, it will be expensive, cut in to what the HQ can take and be a very limited radius around the HQ. Anything straying away from the Necron HQ will be back basic FNP. ie. Destroyers ranging away from the HQ will get blown away with lascannons, and not get back up. Space Marine HQ's have special abilities that extend to all units in the army (fleet, twin-linked, etc). Necron HQ special abilities extend 6-12" from the HQ. As Remerez would sing: B-A-L-A-N-C-E, balance....Not.

[Maelstorm]

The only ranged weapons that WBB works against, and FNP doesn't, is plasma weapons and rending hits (so 1/6th of the hits from assault cannons and snipers).


Does this mean that Lascannons are no longer AP2? Laz-Razorback spam will no longer be the norm? And dirt cheap plasma weapons are no longer available to Space marine squads and HQ's? Cool, I feel better already.

[Cyberscape7]

So, you're probably looking at nothing more then an extra 3 deaths to shooting (typically) if FNP is used (heck, I bet the codex will even include an item for the Lord that lets you take FNP, even against intant death, AP 1/2, etc.).

In which case it will be the ressurection orb.
They do the same thing anyway...

[Connjurus]

And they pretty much have to include the resurrection orb, since I think there's only like one Necron Lord model that doesn't include it.

[Old_Paladin]

Does this mean that Lascannons are no longer AP2? Laz-Razorback spam will no longer be the norm? And dirt cheap plasma weapons are no longer available to Space marine squads and HQ's? Cool, I feel better already.

No, don't be obtuse. They're still strength 9; so they cause instant death to basic warriors anyway.

The only plasma weapons I see on Marines in my area are some pistols, a single rifle and a single cannon in the whole army; and no-one would drop their missiles, lascannons and melta (or even flamers) to overload on plasma. Plasma just isn't good enough in the long run; even against the occasonal army where everything has FNP.

[Melissia]

I am a Sr. statistical engineer.Important note here for anyone who is tempted to say something like this in the future: Noone believes you, noone gives a damn, and you look foolish for making these claims. People on the internet make **** like this up all the time, and you're probably one of them. Seriously, don't make claims that you're some kind of expert on the internet...

"It's okay, I'm an electrical engineer, I would know all about how the electronics of a Leman Russ tank would work!"
"You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm a physicist, and I say a bolter is weaker when it starts than when it ends."
"I'm a biologist, and I say Orks have a really stupid bbiology that doesn't make sense and shouldn't work."

Etc etc etc.

[Faultie]

Important note here for anyone who is tempted to say something like this in the future: Noone believes you, noone gives a damn, and you look foolish for making these claims. People on the internet make **** like this up all the time, and you're probably one of them. Seriously, don't make claims that you're some kind of expert on the internet...

This is why I don't believe Melissia when she offers advice on Sororitas. :P

^JOKE!^

[Maelstorm]

No, don't be obtuse. They're still strength 9; so they cause instant death to basic warriors anyway.

The only plasma weapons I see on Marines in my area are some pistols, a single rifle and a single cannon in the whole army; and no-one would drop their missiles, lascannons and melta (or even flamers) to overload on plasma. Plasma just isn't good enough in the long run; even against the occasonal army where everything has FNP.

Strength 7, AP2 knocks down a Destroyer - I'm talking about Destroyers, not warriors. So, 7 out of 10 Destroyers down from a longer ranged attack than they can answer using FNP. Only 2 out of 10 stayed down using WBB. A HUGE-HUGE difference in game play - not to be swept under the rug with a vanilla FNP rule or a "possible" future 6-12" radius around the HQ item that won't help Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, or anything that might eventually deep-strike or even just shuffle out of the range of an orb/item to be named in the future.

If players are more worried about phase-out than WBB, pick-up the Fritz *.pdf on Necron tactics - No more worries about phase out. It's well worth the cost to download.

Almost all squads on the campaign table against me have plasma with them and the entire back line is littered with Lascannons, Razorback spam is covered in twin-linked lascannons.. Even Mephisotn is carrying plasma.

[Melissia]

This is why I don't believe Melissia when she offers advice on Sororitas. :P

^JOKE!^

Hehe.

I at least offer citations when asked :P

[Maelstorm]

Important note here for anyone who is tempted to say something like this in the future: Noone believes you, noone gives a damn, and you look foolish for making these claims. People on the internet make **** like this up all the time, and you're probably one of them. Seriously, don't make claims that you're some kind of expert on the internet...

"It's okay, I'm an electrical engineer, I would know all about how the electronics of a Leman Russ tank would work!"
"You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm a physicist, and I say a bolter is weaker when it starts than when it ends."
"I'm a biologist, and I say Orks have a really stupid bbiology that doesn't make sense and shouldn't work."

Etc etc etc.

<lol> No worries, I've been doing statistical analysis for GM for years (perhaps why we've run aground?)- No-one here beleive we use it either!. :D

[Calypso2ts]

<lol> No worries, I've been doing statistical analysis for GM for years (perhaps why we've run aground?)- No-one here beleive we use it either!. :D

Not to mention there is no such thing as a statistical engineer.

[Faultie]

Not to mention there is no such thing as a statistical engineer.
Of course there is! It's the same thing as a Spin Doctor: they take the statistics, and they engineer them to say what they want them to. :D

This is, of course, a joke. Statistical engineering is a very real field, with very real (mostly boring) people involved in it.

[Edit] The above is also a joke.

[Maelstorm]

Once you step into Shainin Statistical Analysis, your title changes. :p

[Faultie]

Once you step into Shainin Statistical Analysis, your title changes. :p

Yeah, but Journeyman sounds lame compared to 6σ MASTER BLACK BELT!

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

People on the internet make **** like this up all the time, and you're probably one of them. Seriously, don't make claims that you're some kind of expert on the internet...

"It's okay, I'm an electrical engineer, I would know all about how the electronics of a Leman Russ tank would work!"
"You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm a physicist, and I say a bolter is weaker when it starts than when it ends."
"I'm a biologist, and I say Orks have a really stupid bbiology that doesn't make sense and shouldn't work."

Etc etc etc.

Your analogy is deeply flawed, Melissia. It would be ridiculous if he were to claim "I'm a statistical engineer and I think that it is likely the Tyranids will create a super species in x years". Given that he is applying his understanding of statistics to a tangible, and not fictional, element (read: rules), he's making entirely valid claims.

Secondly, it's not an issue of him claiming to be senior stats engineer - people have the right to make claims that like - not everyone makes it up - it's an issue of how he backs his claims up or even verifying his position. Not hard to see how the former essentially supports the latter.

"Important note here for anyone who is tempted to say something like this in the future: Noone believes you, noone gives a damn, and you look foolish for making these claims."

No offence, but are you a moderator here?

[Melissia]

No, my analogy is perfectly fine. It has nothing to do with the relevancy of the claim, so much as the truth of the claim itself.

People on the internet lie to you.

All the time.

They make **** up, claim they're experts just to prove a point even if they aren't. It's just how the net works. For example, I could say I'm a chemistry major. Whether or not I am is irrelevant-- even if I am making that claim in a way that is completely relevant to the topic at hand, it does not mean anything when I cannot actually prove any credentials because this is the internet and we make **** up all the time. A picture of a degree doesn't mean anything either, as that too can be faked. And so on and so forth.

Claiming you are an expert on some high-level subject on the internet is, regardless of if you are or not, a losing situation. Claim whatever you want about your supposed expert in a field-- it's nigh-on impossible to actually prove unless you're someone famous (and anyone can masquerade as someone famous anyway).

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

No, my analogy is perfectly fine. It has nothing to do with the relevancy of the claim, so much as the truth of the claim itself.

You said his claim is like someone saying I'm an engineer so I know how Leman Russ electronics work. Well, again let me repeat: that's a ridiculous claim for a start as we aren't living in the 41st millennium. It's a fictional setting. If one claims to be an expert in stats and then explores the rule system of a current system, that's actually believable. Because we're not exploring a fictional element; rules are rules.


People on the internet lie to you.

All the time.

People lie a lot, but not all the time. This might sound odd to you, but I have a passion for astrophysics so I went to an astrophysicist's site to check out his latest work. He wasn't making it up! Nor were the computer advisors making stuff up when I went to a forum. People do not lie all the time.

I'm a psychologist. Am I lying now? Guess I must be! Damn, caught out by Melissia! ;)


They make **** up, claim they're experts just to prove a point even if they aren't. It's just how the net works.

No, the issue here is that you are arguing against someone and are frustrated with him making a claim. You might want to exlore the Appeal to Authority Fallacy: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Of course, that's probably all lies, hey Melissia? ;)

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

"A picture of a degree doesn't mean anything either, as that too can be faked. And so on and so forth.

Claiming you are an expert on some high-level subject on the internet is, regardless of if you are or not, a losing situation. Claim whatever you want about your supposed expert in a field-- it's nigh-on impossible to actually prove unless you're someone famous (and anyone can masquerade as someone famous anyway)."

No, Melissia. It's an issue of actually showing knowledge. Believe me, I will be the first person to call you on it when you make a claim to be an expert in an area. People with expertise do actually visit the net. It's sounding like an expert rather than simply making a claim to be an expert that's important.

Anyway, we're derailing the Necron rumour thread. Let's move this discussion elsewhere or just end it.

[Tynskel]

"A picture of a degree doesn't mean anything either, as that too can be faked. And so on and so forth.

Claiming you are an expert on some high-level subject on the internet is, regardless of if you are or not, a losing situation. Claim whatever you want about your supposed expert in a field-- it's nigh-on impossible to actually prove unless you're someone famous (and anyone can masquerade as someone famous anyway)."

No, Melissia. It's an issue of actually showing knowledge. Believe me, I will be the first person to call you on it when you make a claim to be an expert in an area. People with expertise do actually visit the net. It's sounding like an expert rather than simply making a claim to be an expert that's important.

Anyway, we're derailing the Necron rumour thread. Let's move this discussion elsewhere or just end it.

Sounding like an expert does not make you an expert.

Citing like an expert, on the other hand, makes you sound like an expert.

[Melissia]

Simply showing knowledge is irrelevant. Anyone can google things up and do some calculations on a standard scientific calculator. I could probably (if I gave a damn enough) calculate the terminal velocity of a bolter shell in an Earth-like atmosphere, but that doesn't mean that I'm a physics major/physicist.

[Tynskel]

Simply showing knowledge is irrelevant. Anyone can google things up and do some calculations on a standard scientific calculator. I could probably (if I gave a damn enough) calculate the terminal velocity of a bolter shell in an Earth-like atmosphere, but that doesn't mean that I'm a physics major/physicist.

Not exactly. If you cite your references, it allows for others to check into your work, and find out for themselves if they believe you.

An expert is always skeptical. Especially of their own work.


By the way... google is not a cite. Peer Review is the proper place to cite stuff. In the case of 40k--- don't cite your friend, that's not peer reviewed. Cite the Rulebook and a Dictionary for undefined terms. Those are both peer reviewed.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Sounding like an expert does not make you an expert.

Citing like an expert, on the other hand, makes you sound like an expert.

Sorry, I meant that if you can reason and show depth of knowledge, then that's important. For instance, an expert on 40k background would be an expert by being able to discuss the background accurately and rationally.

And yes, citing is important.

[Faultie]

Stuff about the internet
How do I know you're qualified to make such claims? If people lie on the internet, why should I believe you? You could be lying! But wait, that's self-fulfilling, so you must've been right...

Oh no! A logical paradox! I am slain!

[Deadlift]

While all this is fun, I would much rather be reading about Necrons :confused:

[Divergent Reality]

While all this is fun, I would much rather be reading about Necrons :confused:

I was having the exact same thought.

[Old_Paladin]

Strength 7, AP2 knocks down a Destroyer - I'm talking about Destroyers, not warriors. So, 7 out of 10 Destroyers down from a longer ranged attack than they can answer using FNP. Only 2 out of 10 stayed down using WBB. A HUGE-HUGE difference in game play - not to be swept under the rug with a vanilla FNP rule or a "possible" future 6-12" radius around the HQ item that won't help Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, or anything that might eventually deep-strike or even just shuffle out of the range of an orb/item to be named in the future.

Almost all squads on the campaign table against me have plasma with them and the entire back line is littered with Lascannons, Razorback spam is covered in twin-linked lascannons.. Even Mephisotn is carrying plasma.

I still don't see it as a huge issue.

I look at the basic warrior because of its importance, cost and necessity. You are forced to take at least 20 of them (usually more), they are your only scoring unit (for now) and they usually take up from a quarter to a third of your army.
Destroyers are always a luxury and are always in low numbers. You max out at 24 (15 fast attack and 9 heavy).
If you are forced to have the minimum of 20 of something and can have the max of 24 of something else; you still need to take a good hard look at the forced requirements.

Also, as a statistician, you should know that anecdotes from single situations are not facts to go by. Even in your situations you rolled slightly above average for your WBB save. A single unit from a wide verity of choices needs to be taken into account. If you're getting some extra kill hits into your destroyers, it was less going into your warriors and monoliths. So like I said before it's only a couple of extra kills a turn, it just happens to change the target that gets killed.

So I guess if you play Destroyer Wing it's an issue; but not everyone plays like that.
Maybe you'll have to change tactics a little (there's a shocking statement when talking about updating a very old codex); and screen your destroyers with warriors and use their longer range and speed to your advantage.


I also question your concern when you have trouble dealing with razorbacks. With the amount of multi-shot strength 6 shots weapons, strength 9 shots, and fast monstrous creature like melee attacks a 'Cron force can put out; you should be happy that your opponent is spending significant points on single shot platforms.
Common heavy weapons are never out of range of destroyers. They have a 48" threat range (the same or greater then the weapons you fear), or can turbo-boost to get a save against AP:2 weapons.

[Xas]

changeing WBB to FNP will NOT make destroyers less viable. If you think that you either dont analyse your games or are just playing against incompetent idiots who dont know how to deal with WBB.

One of my close friends as well as 2 regular oponents in my local store play necrons (and down many people so are not of the bad sort) and in all the games I remember (roughly a dozen) their models have never made any WBB roll against a weapon which would not allow FNP if it werent for the ressurection orb (nothing prevents GW from makeing the res orb turn FNP into not beeing negated by ap1/2 and stuff).

contrary FNP would have been a better result for them troughout the games.

the key lies in the fact that 5th edition is about mobility and that you only get WBB if another necron of the same type is within a small area.

this means the necron player either has to cluster together (which makeing him even more combersome than IG spam and therefore an allmost auto-loss) or live with the fact that you can deny allmost any single unit their WBB just by whipeing them out completely (and then necrons are just t4 with a 3+ save).


yes combining res orbs, monoliths and the stuff can make necrons far more survivable than just "plain" FNP would but then all this things can be changed so they work with FNP or instead give necrons more teeth to balance it out. ATM winning against necrons is just a task of sitting it out while they boringly refuse to die but cannot do any harm compared to their costs (and destroyers are the totally other side of the spectrum: they are good damage but any competent army can get rid of them by turn 2 completely).

[Maelstorm]

"One of my close friends as well as 2 regular oponents in my local store play necrons"

<ROTFLOL> All this vitrol against WBB and your not even a Necron player?! <ROTFLOL>

I have a close friend who is a heart surgeon and know 2 other Dr's, I've even watched open heart surgery. Go ahead - ask my opinion about the condition of your coronary valves - I'll write you pages of info!

No wonder you don't get it... <sigh>

I play a balanced force -

1 Necron Lord
10 Immortals
20 Warriors
10 Scarabs
10 Destroyers
1 Monolith

I just finished the 6th week of the Murder Valley Campaign with 14 generals at Gamers Sanctuary in Flint, MI. I won all except one game - I always play Necrons - all the time. (check out the ongoing campaign reports on thegamerssanctuary.com - Look under Forums)

The last battle against the space wolves - The Monolith lasted until the 2nd turn (destroyed), and 7 Destroyers were put down with LasCannons in the same 2 turns. WBB instead of FNP made the difference between me winning the game and me being swept off the board by the 3rd turn.

For future reference PLEASE preface your opinion with "I'm not a Necron Player, but this is what I think". I wouldn't have wasted the electrons trying to debate the FNP = WBB fallacy with you.

Good luck with your Vanilla Marines, Dark Eldar, Orcs, Chaos Marines, Blood Angels, etc. and FNP. Please don't push the same vanilla FNP onto Necrons.

"One of my close friends as well as 2 regular oponents in my local store play necrons"

<ROTFLOL>

[Maelstorm]

To the non-Necron players out there.

The longest range weapon of ANY Necron is 36".

The ONLY Necron monsterous creature, the Tomb Spyder (55 points) is WS 2 BS 2, Init 2, moves 6" and does not get a WBB roll.

The cool fast attack/Close Combat combat unit - the Necron Wraith, comes in squads of just 3 and has the WS/BS of a standard Space Marine with a combat knife and they cost 41 points per Wraith. The only viable way to run them is 2 groups of 3 (246 points) with a CC Necron Lord on a Destroyer body carrying a resurection orb and a warscythe (180 points). For the cost of 8 Space Marine Terminators (Sv 2+5+) you get the equivelent of 7 Assault Space Marines (Sv 3+) with combat knives (no ranged attack), one carrying a single power weapon.

The Scarab swarm, also known as the "Tarpit" is WS 2, Init 2, Sv 5+ and has the special rule "Vulnerable to Blasts": template, ordinance or blasts - all inflict 2 wounds instead of 1. Can you say flamer? Scrab swarms do not get WBB rolls.

A 65 point Necron Heavy Destroyer (36" range weapon) has a single shot, 1 Wound, 1 Attack and Init 2, and as a big bonus, you can have a maximum of 3 in a squad.

The 50 point Necron Destroyer (36" weapon range) has 3 shots, 1 wound, 1 Attack and Init 2. You can have a maximum of 5 in a squad.

[DarkLink]

Maelstorm, we're all friends here. So check your attitude.

And just so you know, most of us have at least a basic idea of why Necrons aren't very good. And most of it isn't relevant to the fnp/wbb argument. If Necrons do get a new codex, then all those complaints you have about various units (none of which really have anything to do with whether or not fnp should replace wbb) will all become moot points.

[Defenestratus]

The longest range weapon of ANY Necron is 36".

Basically the same for the eldar except for EML's and Reaper launchers.


The ONLY Necron monsterous creature, the Tomb Spyder (55 points) is WS 2 BS 2, Init 2, moves 6" and does not get a WBB roll.

Uhhh.. C'tan?!


The cool fast attack/Close Combat combat unit - the Necron Wraith, comes in squads of just 3 and has the WS/BS of a standard Space Marine with a combat knife and they cost 41 points per Wraith. The only viable way to run them is 2 groups of 3 (246 points) with a CC Necron Lord on a Destroyer body carrying a resurection orb and a warscythe (180 points). For the cost of 8 Space Marine Terminators (Sv 2+5+) you get the equivelent of 7 Assault Space Marines (Sv 3+) with combat knives (no ranged attack), one carrying a single power weapon.

You also fail to mention that they completely ignore cover while moving through it, have a 3+ invulnerable save, and I believe are str 6. I agree that you should be able to get more than 3 per squad though.


The Scarab swarm, also known as the "Tarpit" is WS 2, Init 2, Sv 5+ and has the special rule "Vulnerable to Blasts": template, ordinance or blasts - all inflict 2 wounds instead of 1. Can you say flamer? Scrab swarms do not get WBB rolls.

All swarms have this rule, and if you turbo-boost them into cover for their first move, its ridiculously hard to kill a huge squad of them without devoting a lot of firepower to them which is firepower thats not being used against your warriors.


A 65 point Necron Heavy Destroyer (36" range weapon) has a single shot, 1 Wound, 1 Attack and Init 2, and as a big bonus, you can have a maximum of 3 in a squad. The 50 point Necron Destroyer (36" weapon range) has 3 shots, 1 wound, 1 Attack and Init 2. You can have a maximum of 5 in a squad.

See my point above about ranged guns. 36" is plenty far. As for the other stats you provide.... if your heavy destroyers are getting into assault with a nice long ranged gun like that then you're doing something wrong. And destroyers are worth every point you pay for them. I've been face raped by them too many times to say that they suck.

[DarkLink]

To be honest, I've never, ever heard a Necron player complain about Scarabs before. In fact, this is the first time that I've seen a Necron player that doesn't love them.

And not only do Destroyers have a 36" range, they can move 12" and shoot. And turbo boost. They're one of the fastest heavy firepower units in the game, outside of the new Dark Eldar stuff.


Not that this has anything to do with wbb vs fnp, but I digress.

[Maelstorm]

No worries. Still a WBB v. FNP issue.

Nightbringer and Deceiver = HQ units with the "Above all others" rule. Anyone on the board with range can shoot at them. The have no armour and a 4+ invulnerable save and cost 360 and 300 points respectively.

To move while ignoring terrain Wraiths have to leave behind the only thing that gives them a chance at WBB - The 180 point Necron Destroyer Lord with an Orb.

I love Scarab Swarms, I run 10 in a group and turbo-boost them into the middle of the enemy. IG players panic when they see you're about to tie-up their board-edge firing lines.

Necrons are not a bad army at all - capable of tabling any other army in the game. The only time I've been phased-out was by a combined-arms force of Blood Angels and Imperial Guard.

Tactics - Immediately turbo boost your Scarab Swarm tarpit towards the enemies lines (30 wounds can take 3+ turns to eliminate), make sure enemy troop transports are shaken and stirred every turn, eliminate any threats to the Monolith ASAP, Gauss everything on foot until they glow. If the enemy is deepstriking/drop-podding most of their troops - reserve your soft Necron warriors to prevent phase out, walk/run/teleport away from deepstriking troops. Castle your troops in a corner and shield the troops with your Monolith until you're ready to teleport them forward. The Monolith is moving LOS blocking terrain, perfect for making slow-walking terminators wander around trying to get around you!

[Xas]

<ROTFLOL> All this vitrol against WBB and your not even a Necron player?! <ROTFLOL>




you do know, that playing against an army and regularly beating the crapton out of it usually tells you more about the army/the problem than constantly losing with the army.

if you as a player whine how underpowered your units are then it is seen (usually right so) as plain whineing and your incompetence.

if you as an oponent have the feeling that the army in question hasnt have a chance even before setting up you are probably right that there is an issue.

and WBB is so anoying (and not in a way that it endangers my victory the slightes but just delays the unevitable) that I'd rather see free rending on all gaus weapons than that cumbersome rule to stay as it is.

[Somofrates]

Necron warrior (24pts):

WS4
BS4
S4
T4
W2
I2
A1
LD10
SV-

Necron, Stubborn, Feel no Pain, Eternal warrior, WBB
Gauss: rending weapon both shooting and CC

[DarkLink]

About the only thing worse than having either FNP or WBB (depending on who you ask), is having both. That is completely nonsensical, especially on the same model.

One, or the other.


And drop the Eternal Warrior. We don't need another army with that blanket rule. And why would Gauss Rifles be rending in CC? They're a shooting weapon, not a close combat weapon.

[w7west]

My take on warriors:

Fearless, fnp, guass has rending, 6+inv, defensive grenade (or have to pass ld to charge them)

ws 4, bs 4, str 4, t 5, i 3, a 1,w 1, sv 3+

pts 25

I like the has to pass ld check to charge them more than defensive grenades since you could have options for decreasing ld within a certain range. Definitely rending on the guass weaponry in order to give necs some sexy anti tank. Also I hate mech guard so anything that makes their day a little bit harder is approved by me.

I feel necrons should be at least as hard as plague marines to take down hence the t5 3+ and fnp. Sure at 25 pt each not a whole lot of spam can be had but 3 10 man squads should be very resilient with this setup. Rending on weapons for sure would make this army competitive.

[Lerra]

Here's my take:

Necron Warrior
WS3, BS4, S4, T4, I2, A1, W1, Sv 4+ Ld10

Special rules: WBB, Phase Out

WBB is rolled at the end of every phase. So warriors that are killed in shooting can roll to get back up for the assault phase, and necrons can roll to get back up before combat resolution is determined.

Phase Out: Any Necron squad that fails a leadership or morale check makes a tactical retreat - they immediately phase out and are removed from play. The surviving members of this unit are placed into reserve and the unit rolled for as normal reserves would be. All phased out units re-enter play via deep strike.

Gauss weaponry: Gauss weapons automatically glance vehicles on a roll of '6'. Against vehicles, Gauss weapons count as AP1.

[Somofrates]

About the only thing worse than having either FNP or WBB (depending on who you ask), is having both. That is completely nonsensical, especially on the same model.

No armor. And in my weird and sick imagination they... well... they feel no pain, that's it. And someimes come back, so...


And drop the Eternal Warrior. We don't need another army with that blanket rule.

You're right. Necrons are not eternal. Not at all.


And why would Gauss Rifles be rending in CC? They're a shooting weapon, not a close combat weapon.

Well, maybe we can make something like... let me see... an ancient and alien piece of equipment surrounded by a some kind of dark energy that count as both!

No, no, no! Wait! I have something better! We can give them a CC rending weapon with... an attached rending gauss rifle!

Yeah, I know, totally OP for 25 points. We better copy-paste the BA codex and throw in some monoliths.

[Duke]

If I had my say I would vote for toughness 5, fnp. Instead of toughness 4 and 2 wounds. This would make them feel like tough little gitz, but not entirely broken.

Duke

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I know, totally OP for 25 points. We better copy-paste the BA codex and throw in some monoliths.

Nah, not really OP. It's just that tossing on FNP and WBB at the same time is just silly. And slapping rending on their CC attacks seems odd to me, as well.

[GrenAcid]

6+inv, defensive grenade (or have to pass ld to charge them)


Whay that? isnt charging demon who eat soul more scary than an silent robot??

[Somofrates]

Nah, not really OP. It's just that tossing on FNP and WBB at the same time is just silly.

FNP is their way to roll something instead of armor.

It's not silly, it's just a way to avoid another armor 3 codex. To make other codexes use some other tactics against them. To have no armor troops and still make them hard will be terribly fun for both players.

We see everyday T5 AV3 FNP fearless plaguemarines, god-killer inferno ammo or deepstriking landriders as assigned transports, and you think no armor with FNP and WBB is silly? Cmon...

[w7west]

Whay that? isnt charging demon who eat soul more scary than an silent robot??

If the old ones are scared of crons I am pretty sure a guardsman would be pooping his trousers.

[Useless]

I have to agree. 2 wounds, EW, FnP and WBB would make for a pretty interesting unit to fight. Whether the basic troops get it or if it should be one of the elites is the question.
Maybe with just one wound and knock it back down below 20 for the basic troop, and leave the two wounds for an Elite.

[DarkLink]

FNP is their way to roll something instead of armor.

It's not silly, it's just a way to avoid another armor 3 codex. To make other codexes use some other tactics against them. To have no armor troops and still make them hard will be terribly fun for both players.


Why not just give them a 4+ save, then? Besides, I doubt a Necron army with a 3+ save still won't play much like a Space Marine army.

[GrenAcid]

If the old ones are scared of crons I am pretty sure a guardsman would be pooping his trousers.

Buahahahahahahaha, mon dont mix C`tans and their slaves. I would agree they were scared of C`tans to some degree but not their puppets.

[Maelstorm]

My thoughts on GW wimping out and giving Necrons vanilla FNP instead of just fixing WBB.
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/5thEditionNecron.jpg

From a true die-hard Necron player
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/20101205_0051.jpg

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Now im no Necron player, i have never even faced one of there armies yet, but i agree, dont just turn them into a modified SM army with FNP.
GW should just improve the WBB rules, totally get rid of the phase out rules, i always thought it was unfair.
And bring in lots of more units, vehicles and rules. Make them worth collecting, converting and worth the attention that some true die hard fans like Maelstorm is :)

BTW Maelstorm, thats an amazing number of Necrons. How many points is that?

[Maelstorm]

Along with 2 more Monoliths, another Forge World Gauss Pylon, another full unit of Flayed ones and a few Forge World Necron Tomb Stalkers it rolls out to just over 9,500 points.

Looking forward to some Necron love from GW later this year...

[Gaz Taylor]

Looking forward to some Necron love from GW later this year...

I think we all do. I haven't touched my Necrons since 4th edition, partially because the way they works now plus half the army got destroyed due to an incident involving me, my 30th birthday cake, a lots of whiskey :(


Now im no Necron player, i have never even faced one of there armies yet, but i agree, dont just turn them into a modified SM army with FNP. GW should just improve the WBB rules

I think having FNP will be better than the WBB rules as it helps keep the game flowing and uses the USR's. For example it's easier to roll an extra save than the messing around each turn checking what model can comeback and where it goes. It also adds to the relentless theme that the Necrons have. I can't see them just being Marines (although it's rumoured Mat Ward is writing the codex), especially when you look at the last few codexes GW has released as they all have very strong themes in how they look and play.

[Maelstorm]

No FNP for me please - Necron Lords, Destoyer Lords, Immortals, Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers (all of your most expensive units) will all be "instakilled" by 3 times the number of ranged weapons! In no way is that "better" than taking less than 30 seconds to sort out WBB att the start of your turn. How many Las-cannons can a Space Wolf lord field in their standard leaf-blower list? All insta-killing EVERY Necron using FNP instead of WBB.

Drop Phase-Out, fix Necrons broken Sweeping Advances issues and give them lower AP weapons to deal with Terminators. Don't throw away the one thing that makes them unique.

In no way is FNP unique - EVERY SINGLE 40K CODEX coming out has FNP available to them. For GW the "Universal" in USR means "Lets give it to everyone"! The Imperial Guard general I fought last week had a command group who ALL had FNP, along with more dirt-cheap armour, fliers and heavy weapons teams than he could easily fit into his 6 square foot deployemnt zone, all for 1,500 points.

Also, changing Gauss "glance" rules to rending would make it almost impossible for anything other than the expensive, single-shot, short-ranged Heavy Destroyer to glance a Land Raider. Nerf necron glance rules and nerf WBB too? Ack!

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/5thEditionNecron.jpg

[Gaz Taylor]

Nerf necron glance rules and nerf WBB too? Ack!

At the moment we have no idea what the rules will look like. I personally can see them using FNP as it's a simple mechanic and it follows what we've been seeing from the last few books. I wouldn't be surprised if we also see units which enhance FNP or even if the new codex gives the rule a Necron twist.

[isotope99]

I can see them going with FNP and Rending to replace WBB and Gauss. The nerf to WBB countered by the increase in weapon power.

This is simpler and gives necron a distinct niche in the amry lists, but with WBB being so integral to the necron army they might keep it and just try and smooth out/clarify some of the tricky bits. Rending instead of Gauss gives them a chance to harm most mech (max roll 13 for a regular warrior) but stops them disabling the really tough stuff like land raiders and provides a significant boost to their firepower versus all infantry rather than being useful only against wraithlords. Could be rending at half range (melta style) to keep the points cost down.

The res orb, tomb spider and monolith could then provide some FNP benefits like immunity to Power weapons/AP2, rerolls or FNP on a 3+.

Its been said before, but the phase out rule should be squad based rather than army based IMHO.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, for all we know guass rifles will be str 6 36" Assault 3, AP 1 and Rending, on a 20 point model. Think you need WBB instead of FNP then?

[Brass Scorpion]

for all we know guass rifles will be str 6 36"...Whenever they monkey around with the ranges of the weapons it has a dramatic effect, so hopefully they'll play-test any changes thoroughly. Look what happened to Eldar Guardians when their weapon went to a 12" range while the Dire Avengers with the same weapon got an 18" range for it. One almost never sees Guardians around any longer because by the time they can shoot they are in imminent danger of being wiped out in assault.

[Maelstorm]

Yeah, for all we know guass rifles will be str 6 36" Assault 3, AP 1 and Rending, on a 20 point model. Think you need WBB instead of FNP then?

Yeah, for all we know they'll look like just like a vanilla Space Marine bolt gun stat line. Yes, we need WBB instead of FNP. Do you play Necrons or just snipe?

I buy/build/paint and fight with Necrons bacause they have WBB.
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/20101205_0051.jpg

[GrenAcid]

@up
It always amaze me when people can spend such mone on such (only my personal opinion) dull army.
Great legion you have there. Hope necron gonna have some more "life" in.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, for all we know they'll look like just like a vanilla Space Marine bolt gun stat line. Yes, we need WBB instead of FNP. Do you play Necrons or just snipe?


Do you actually listen to and provide arguments based on logic, or do you just claim "I'm a Necron player, so obviously I'm correct"?



http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/20101205_0051.jpg

Nice. That's a lot of fully painted models. Any close ups?

[facelessone]

necrons are my #1 army,out of the 9 i have.I hope that thay get a codex like blood angels,all kick@ss & not smerfed like chaos codex . BA got alot of elite special rules that make them super space marines,and the gray knights this spring will top them.....id like necrons to have stuf like drop pod assault ,but who knows with GW ,chaos didnt even get drop pods & there space marines....i love the game but dont like all the power to the poster boy space marines.....

[Defenestratus]

Necrons already have something better than drop pod assault - they have deep striking monoliths that can spit out necron warriors.

[Maelstorm]

Nice. That's a lot of fully painted models. Any close ups?

Thanks. I have photos posted up on several locations already; Beasts of War, 40kfightclub and thegamerssanctuary.com

C'Tan
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/DSC01809.jpg

Destroyer Lords
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/DSC01807.jpg

Warriors
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/DSC01805.jpg

Necron Lords, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Tomb Spyders, Pariahs...
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/DSC01811.jpg

[Maelstorm]

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/DSC01782.jpg

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/DSC01803.jpg

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/DSC01796.jpg

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/DSC01800.jpg

[Maelstorm]

I bought, built and painted this Necron army in just under 3 months for a 6 week campaign and Apocalypse battle. I was quickly hooked on painting Necrons!

2 Forge World Tomb Stalkers, another unit of Flayed Ones and another Forge World Gauss Pylon are on the bench. A little over 9,500 points of Necrons total.

I vote for WBB instead of FNP.

[dannyat2460]

after looking at those pics i suddnenly have a very very bad feeling

[Defenestratus]

I vote for WBB instead of FNP.

Fortunately, points amassed/spent on a particular army doesn't mean that your vote is more weighted when it comes to determining the future of a codex - otherwise my 25,000+ points of Eldar would dictate that witchblades would act as power weapons.

[Maelstorm]

<lol> That's a lot of Eldar! 5 gallons of paint later, eh?

Do you have photos of the whole Craftworld on-line someplace?

I collected Space Marines 25 years ago, was bored with seeing everyone at the gaming table playing the same thing - hence the 3 months of buying/building/painting Necrons for a 6 week campaign and final Apocalypse game.

[Defenestratus]

No, I don't have it photographed since its a conglomoration of 3 different craftworlds / exodite fleets ... the ulthwe parts being painted like 17 years ago and not something I'm proud of putting on "film".

I'm fielding 13k of it in an apoc game in Feb and you'll see pics of that.

I went through 11 pots of bleached bone on my phantom titan - 5 gallons is close! :P

[HsojVvad]

Wow Malestrom. Very beautifully done. And done in less than 3 months? I can't even paint 5 minis in 3 months. Congradualtions on the stelar excelent job in painting all that.

[Maelstorm]

Thanks HsojVvad.

I spent 2-3 hours every night during the week and then 5-10 hour on the weekends. I took the same time I was using to train for my first Ironman 70.3 triathlon during the spring/summer and started painting during the same hours.

I used tactics from Fritz40k and Beasts of War to good effect durung the campaign. The Pylon was very effective during the Apocalypse game!

[facelessone]

Necrons already have something better than drop pod assault - they have deep striking monoliths that can spit out necron warriors.

its not the same as the SM DPA ...1st turn monoliths deepstrikeing , with no misshap like SM would be nice....

[Maelstorm]

4 monoliths: $240
6 Bottles of GW paint: $24
4 Paint Brushes: $15

Deepstrike scatter onto a Baneblade with 3 of the 4 monoliths and making the Baneblade move out of the way for each Monolith: Priceless!