Can you used chapter Approved rules in Apoc INSTEAD of Current Codex rules?

[KenStorm989]

A friend of mine asked me to ask around and see, He just bought a crap ton of space marine bikes on ebay at a steal of a price, i think he got somewhere around 60 models that are a mix of most Bikes and some attack bikes...and So he wants to build an Apoc level White Scars army. I dont remember the days of Chapter Approved, but he insists there were rules in Chapter Approved for White scars that are waaay better than the current Codex Space Marines Kahn List available. He said WS Bikes got an extra attack, more Bikes in a squad, etc etc...But the Question came up...Can you use Chapter Approved Rules Instead of Current Codex Rules? i know for Apoc you may use old models and the rules that go with them..i dunno

would just like someone elses opinion on it, because if you cant use the chapter approved rules, he wants to know so he can "set the army up" the correct way

Kenny

[SonicPara]

Apocalypse is a very flexible gaming system compared to standard 40K but I've always felt that this flexibility should only be allowed in thematic situations like if an Imperial Guard player really wants to bring a group of Carnifexes. This isn't ideal as far as fluff is concerned but its Apocalypse so its alright, its simple to just say that the IG are somehow controlling the big bugs.

I think that this flexibility should NOT allow players to simply pick and choose rule sets. There is nothing stopping your friend from fielding a massive White Scars bike army, he simply wants them to be better then they would be using the updated codex. Stuff like that starts to move to the realm of extreme power gaming in my opinion and I've always believed that it has no place in Apocalypse.

When I set up an Apocalypse game, everyone uses the most recent version of their codexes for their units. If you really love a specific OOP character, use their model and their fluff but simply proxy them as a logical unit from the most recent codex. Thats just my opinion though.

[Mr.Pickelz]

i'd say let him, but remind him that, with older rules comes older war-gear rules...(aka GK FW and SS...)

im not too sure on the rules for WS in CA but if he wants to use those then its 100% or nothin ;)

[Kahoolin]

Questions like this always seem weird to me. Obviously no-one's going to stop you from doing what you want in your gaming group. There's no warhammer police to kick your door in and tell you that you can't let your mate use the rules he wants. The whole point of Apocalypse is to get rid of restrictions so you can have stupid big killy fun, not play a serious game.

That said, Chapter Approved rules are from a different edition. That means points values for one thing are all out of whack. They SAY in the Apocalypse book that you can use old models, but that's because the studio are the sorts of players who might not even calculate the points for their lists in Apoc games, just take what "feels right."

If that's not you, then I'd think twice about letting someone use horribly outdated points values and rules. I'd go with the suggestion above and use the most recent, especially since there are actually rules for White Scars in 5th edition. Would you let your friend field an army against you using the 2nd ed Eldar codex with all it's points values and rules instead of the most recent? If not, this is pretty much the same thing.

[eldargal]

I shouldn't bother personally, Apocalypse lets you ignore FOC and such things so there is no reason why he couldn't field his white Scars bike army with 5th ed rules.
I'm all for house rules and players adapting the game (as encouraged by GW, strangely enough) but picking and mixing editions just seems a bit much.

[KenStorm989]

Well i think he would rather use the Chapter Approved rules because the White scars add an extra bike to a squad over the 5th ed rules, and also get an extra attack, i think there are some other perks as well, not 100% sure...but yea thats why he wants to use those rules.

[Tynskel]

It's all about a brood of Super Crushing Claw Fexes charging out of a Thunderhawk!

[Tynskel]

btw.

'way better' could translate to: way overpowered. I would look at the rules he's talking about, compare them to what's now. See how much things cost and how well they perform.

Will it be a tournament legal army? No. But probably fun!

[Faultie]

See, this actually seems counter-intuitive to what Apocalypse is all about, at least to me.
Apocalypse is all about fielding all the models you've got, and playing to have a fun, thematic experience.

It isn't, or at least shouldn't be, about picking and choosing the rules sets you've got to game the system and make your list "teh uber". It just seems against the spirit of the entire format. But as someone above said, it's your game group, and there 40k Police (probably) won't show up and haul you all off before the Adeptus Arbites for crimes against the Emperor.

I would generally allow most Chapter Approved rules, except where a new codex has overridden them (example: Kasrkin).

[Old_Paladin]

Those rules were in the Index Astartes actually: it made really fluffy rules for both loyalist and traitor legions.

White Scars got things like bikes as troops and all bikers got a pistol and knife, and a special rule to allow both to be used (the old bike rules required one hand to drive).
All infantry had to be mounted, either on bikes/attack-bikes, in a rhino or razorback, all dread were forced to take and deploy in drop-pods and you could only take a single heavy tank in total.

The really good bikes were offset by sucking at everything else. I'd say let him use the rules, but he should stick to ALL the rules; he can get his free additional close combat weapons, but don't allow him to team it up with armoured brigads and a terminator company.

[BuFFo]

A friend of mine asked me to ask around and see, He just bought a crap ton of space marine bikes on ebay at a steal of a price, i think he got somewhere around 60 models that are a mix of most Bikes and some attack bikes...and So he wants to build an Apoc level White Scars army. I dont remember the days of Chapter Approved, but he insists there were rules in Chapter Approved for White scars that are waaay better than the current Codex Space Marines Kahn List available. He said WS Bikes got an extra attack, more Bikes in a squad, etc etc...But the Question came up...Can you use Chapter Approved Rules Instead of Current Codex Rules? i know for Apoc you may use old models and the rules that go with them..i dunno

would just like someone elses opinion on it, because if you cant use the chapter approved rules, he wants to know so he can "set the army up" the correct way

Kenny

Welcome to 40k.

You can do whatever you want as long as it is cool with your opponent.

Enjoy!

[Lerra]

Personally, I'd allow it as long as I trusted the other fellow. The CA White Scars have some advantages but also a lot of disadvantages (4th ed wargear, restricted unit choices). I think the models cost a bit more per bike, too. As long as those restrictions are still in, it should be balanced imo.

[LSWSjr]

Actually those Chapter Approved articles were in reference to 3rd Edition, so if he's gonna use them, also make sure he uses the 3rd Edition Space Marines Codex.

Just running the numbers now and his Bikes are costing him 303 Pts under 3rd Edition for a squad of 8 (with Sergeant and the extra CCWs), compared to the 215 Pts under 5th Edition for a squad of 8 (with Sergeant and Frag & Krak Grenades). Also the Attack Bikes under 5th Edition are 10-15 Pts cheaper. The only things his Bikers have to show for their extra 88 Pts they're losing the Grenades, gaining an extra CCW, the ability to reroll Difficult Terrain tests and a variant of the Hit & Run rule (if the squad doesn't include an Attack Bike). That said he also can buy Special Weapons for the squads at a cheaper rate, however this would deny them their extra Attack from having 2 CCWs.

Beyond that the rest of the army will see other cost changes here and there, most of them being less than advantageous to his army. Honestly considering you're going to be playing Apocalypse I'd simply build it using the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, include Shrike instead of Khan (Fleet is great for Biker armies) and just include as many 8-Man Bike Squads as he wants (their's no FOC to restrict him in Apocalypse).

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr