Did the Eldar create the Ethereals?

[eldargal]

What do you think?

For those not familiar with the theory, it holds that Eldar, possibly from Ulthwe, kidnapped the Queen of an insectoid race called the Q'orl that had a similar method of hormonal control over the populace a the Ethereals display over the Tau. They fabricated an organ and implanted it into some Tau thus creating the Ethereals. The Ethereals were then able to unite the Tau and create a Chaos-free Empire.

This is mostly hinted at in the old Xenology book and possible the third ed Tau codex, I forget exactly.

A few minor points:

For: Eldrad Ulthran talks about being very 'proud' of the Tau. I forget the source of this.

Against: The Kroot are seen attacking Eldar in one of the codex stories.

[Kahoolin]

Against: The Kroot are seen attacking Eldar in one of the codex stories.Yeah but Kroot aren't Tau. I'm not following you.

[eldargal]

Yep, but its often held up as a reason the Tau can't be Eldar puppets.:)


Yeah but Kroot aren't Tau. I'm not following you.

[Mike X]

For: Eldrad Ulthran talks about being very 'proud' of the Tau. I forget the source of this.

Eldrad probably meant he was "proud" of the Tau in the sense that the Tau aren't arrogant and species-exclusive like the Imperium and Eldar were during their rises to power.

[eldargal]

Possibly, but pride implies come kind of connection. It is very difficult to be proud of something you have no connection to whatsoever, beyond observing them perhaps. I think it is far more reasonable that Eldrad oversaw the 'creation' of the Tau in some capacity.

My own feeling is that the Eldar DID create the Tau, I feel the circumstantial evidence is far more convincing than the arguments to the contrary, which often consist of "Xenology sucks" or "But Kroot et some Eldar Rangers one time.:)


Eldrad probably meant he was "proud" of the Tau in the sense that the Tau aren't arrogant and species-exclusive like the Imperium and Eldar were during their rises to power.

[Tynskel]

you need to go back further.

The Old Ones created the Eldar. Malcador Created the Emperor, hence why he was always at his side. The Old Ones created the Orks, the Old Ones Created the Tau.

All to fight the Necrons.

The 2 problems with their plan: Choas. Tyranids.

However, we know the answer to this problem: Chaos won't win, becuase the Tyranids will suppress their presence with the Hive Mind, allowing the Tyranids to eat everything--- including the Necrons.

The Eldar Failed because of Excess.
The Humans Failed because of Pride.
The Orks Failed because of brutality.
The Tau Failed because they are too late.

[Erasmus of Baal]

Malcador Created the Emperor, hence why he was always at his side.

Where is this from? I've never heard anything like it before.

[Mike X]

Possibly, but pride implies come kind of connection. It is very difficult to be proud of something you have no connection to whatsoever, beyond observing them perhaps. I think it is far more reasonable that Eldrad oversaw the 'creation' of the Tau in some capacity.

Pride doesn't necessarily require connection, it can also be felt from similarities or even slight envy.



Malcador Created the Emperor, hence why he was always at his side.

Where is this from? I've never heard anything like it before.

I've also never heard this theory/story.

[DrLove42]

Its the one mystery i'd love to see solved in a future codex.

My thoughts are that the ethereals are eldar influenced. And maybe it didn't stop there. The Tau technology is heavily advanced, and advanced from cave dwelling folk to tech suits and spacecraft incredibly fast (well comparativily). Maybe the Eldar are still helping in the shadows...the Eldar manipulating a lesser race for their own gain isn't unheard of, and the best Farseers could have forseen their need millenia in advance

Also as for the Cons; Krrot nom noming Eldar, the Kroot are very much a force to themselves. Thye sell themselves as mercs to every race so its likely they would still do this

[david5th]

y Malcador Created the Emperor, hence why he was always at his side.

WTF! Where is that written down.

[Kahoolin]

Also as for the Cons; Kroot nom noming Eldar, the Kroot are very much a force to themselves. Thye sell themselves as mercs to every race so its likely they would still do this.That's what I was thinking. Also, even if the Eldar did influence the development of the Tau, that doesn't mean that the Tau are incapable of waging war on the Eldar, if that's what eldargal was getting at. In the grim darkness there is only war and all that.

[MaxKool]

you need to go back further.

The Old Ones created the Eldar. Malcador Created the Emperor, hence why he was always at his side. The Old Ones created the Orks, the Old Ones Created the Tau.

All to fight the Necrons.

The 2 problems with their plan: Choas. Tyranids.

However, we know the answer to this problem: Chaos won't win, becuase the Tyranids will suppress their presence with the Hive Mind, allowing the Tyranids to eat everything--- including the Necrons.

The Eldar Failed because of Excess.
The Humans Failed because of Pride.
The Orks Failed because of brutality.
The Tau Failed because they are too late.


Sory mate, I just dont see the tyranids doing much against the necrons, If and when they are more fully awaked the other races will see just what we mean by legion . The nids wont touch the 'crons till everything in the galaxy has been delt with, Wich will take a hella long time... giving the crons more time to be awoken by the ctan... as they just dont wanna open that can of worms.

My Vote is Neither, The decviver is behind the tau....

OP, I dont know if ide say the eldar created the tau... I dont think they are close to where the old ones were millions of years ago. They might be able to manipulate life but I think the creation and cultivation of a new species is beyond them.

Im more of the book that the deciver is behind the tau... The ctan would benifit more from a warp-nul race than the eldar.

[Mike X]

They might be able to manipulate life but I think the creation and cultivation of a new species is beyond them.

Agreed.

[eldargal]

That is the beauty of it, it isn't the cultivation of a new species, it was enhancing some existing Tau with hormonal control glands, if Xenology is to be believed.:)

Craftworlds sometimes go to war with other craftworlds and Exodite worlds, so the idea of a puppet species unaware of its nature going to war with them is not inconceivable.

[AbeSapien]

I don't think Eldrads pride is a father/son type of pride. I saw it as more of a big brother/ little brother type of pride. He knows that the Eldar have had heir day and will never have a large empire like they used to but he knows that the Tau are a rising power and are yet to have their day.

I think this fits with the xenology book. The Eldar have guided this young race so that they didn't destroy themselves, Eldrad probably sees the Tau as the Eldars legacy incase the Eldar fail and go extinct they will have still have left a postive mark on the universe after they have gone.

[Mike X]

I don't think Eldrads pride is a father/son type of pride. I saw it as more of a big brother/ little brother type of pride. He knows that the Eldar have had heir day and will never have a large empire like they used to but he knows that the Tau are a rising power and are yet to have their day.

I think this fits with the xenology book. The Eldar have guided this young race so that they didn't destroy themselves, Eldrad probably sees the Tau as the Eldars legacy incase the Eldar fail and go extinct they will have still have left a postive mark on the universe after they have gone.

Yeah, that's what I was saying too.

[JxKxR]

I don't think Eldrads pride is a father/son type of pride. I saw it as more of a big brother/ little brother type of pride. He knows that the Eldar have had heir day and will never have a large empire like they used to but he knows that the Tau are a rising power and are yet to have their day.

I think this fits with the xenology book. The Eldar have guided this young race so that they didn't destroy themselves, Eldrad probably sees the Tau as the Eldars legacy incase the Eldar fail and go extinct they will have still have left a postive mark on the universe after they have gone.

Agreed but I do think its still possible that the harliquins had something to do with how the ethreals have the pull over the tau, but I also think it would be cool if the ethreals weren't really tau at all but some old alien race that was thought to be extinct and can shape shift. So they pretend to be tau so in the hope that when the Galaxy is united those who would see it destroyed would be no match for the GREATER GOOD. They try to bring in other races as peacfully as possible and are not above using pheremones to control the tau and mind control helmets to control the Vespid or just pay off the kroot.

[Kevlarshark]

Even the First Tau Codex hints there may be something unusual about the Tau...
They went from barely mastering fire to having a "Space Dwelling Empire" in a few thousand years. The sudden appearance of the Ethereals as fully grown "Tau of unusual appearance" marks them out as unlikely to be a natural evolution of the Tau (although the Tau race are noted as having a rapid evolution). The unusual phenomena around the time of the ethereals first appearance and shadowy figures glimpsed on the mountains sounds much too overt for the Eldar to me.

I dont think the Eldar manipulated the Tau in some way, there is plenty of fluff with them manipulating the fate of other races with events but not by tinkering with their genes. The Dark eldar are more into the twisting of the flesh thing and may have access to some pre-fall tech which could do it?

But I have two other possible theorys...
The Necrons are noted for playing with the evolution of the 'lesser races' in order to make pariahs (who like the whole Tau race) have none or almost no signature in the warp. The Tau Expansion also coincides roughly with the re-emergence of the 'Crons, An odd connection no?

The Orks are a heavily engineered race and creation of the 'Old ones'...Perhaps the Slann are not as extinct as previously thought? They certainly have created races from scratch before...an odd tweak here and there is not beyond them. The Tau have an especial hatred for the Orks, a racial sibling rivalry would make some sense? This could link to the Eldar, who are supposed to be one of the old ones first creations, and that may explain the pride thing, like being proud of a younger brother?

[Pendragon38]

Tau have an especial hatred for the Orks, a racial sibling rivalry would make some sense? This could link to the Eldar, who are supposed to be one of the old ones first creations, and that may explain the pride thing, like being proud of a younger brother?[/QUOTE]
The Squats have the same Hatred towards the orks same with there pride as the Tau. sOr it could be an eldar/ squat science project that was to deal with the crones!......... Maybe ?MMMMmmmmm!maybe?

[Herald of Nurgle]

Yay for Xenology book!

[eldargal]

Except that 'tall, poitnty eared' aliens are specifically mentioned as harvesting the glands of the slug-alien-thing, the gland used to control its race via hormones and strongly hinted at being the method used by the Ethereals to control the Tau. Necrons don't have pointy ears, and the Slann have devolved into snotlings or something. They dead.:rolleyes:


Even the First Tau Codex hints there may be something unusual about the Tau...
They went from barely mastering fire to having a "Space Dwelling Empire" in a few thousand years. The sudden appearance of the Ethereals as fully grown "Tau of unusual appearance" marks them out as unlikely to be a natural evolution of the Tau (although the Tau race are noted as having a rapid evolution). The unusual phenomena around the time of the ethereals first appearance and shadowy figures glimpsed on the mountains sounds much too overt for the Eldar to me.

I dont think the Eldar manipulated the Tau in some way, there is plenty of fluff with them manipulating the fate of other races with events but not by tinkering with their genes. The Dark eldar are more into the twisting of the flesh thing and may have access to some pre-fall tech which could do it?

But I have two other possible theorys...
The Necrons are noted for playing with the evolution of the 'lesser races' in order to make pariahs (who like the whole Tau race) have none or almost no signature in the warp. The Tau Expansion also coincides roughly with the re-emergence of the 'Crons, An odd connection no?

The Orks are a heavily engineered race and creation of the 'Old ones'...Perhaps the Slann are not as extinct as previously thought? They certainly have created races from scratch before...an odd tweak here and there is not beyond them. The Tau have an especial hatred for the Orks, a racial sibling rivalry would make some sense? This could link to the Eldar, who are supposed to be one of the old ones first creations, and that may explain the pride thing, like being proud of a younger brother?

[Baron Spikey]

Regarding the Tau's rapid technological evolution- think about if the human race had been fully unified, the sorts of progress we'd have made would be astounding. Instead we've been divided by war and competing interests for so long that every time we learn something we seem to forget it within a century or 2.

I think we can disregard Eldrad's statement of pride if only for the reason that another Farseer is 'proud' of the Orks and their society, and we know the Eldar didn't have any hand is creating them. I thnk it would be more reasonable to suggest that Eldrad is simply stating his, singular, opinion.

[Tynskel]

It was the same people that Malcador is from: the 'Old Ones'

[Baron Spikey]

It was the same people that Malcador is from: the 'Old Ones'

I presume your trolling or your ignorant. Which is it, jack-*** or idiot?

[miteyheroes]

Except that 'tall, poitnty eared' aliens are specifically mentioned as harvesting the glands of the slug-alien-thing, the gland used to control its race via hormones and strongly hinted at being the method used by the Ethereals to control the Tau. Necrons don't have pointy ears, and the Slann have devolved into snotlings or something. They dead.:rolleyes:

Except that everything in Xenology may be a lie, if all the evidence was planted & manipulated by the Deceiver. I think the Deceiver took on Eldar form to steal the Q'orl hormone control, and then planted the Ethereals among the Tau. He wants new minions, new puppets to use to attack the Children of the Old Ones.
And doing it whilst looking like the Eldar, thus making a whole extra race hate the Eldar? That's very much the sort of thing The Deceiver would do.

Snotlings were the Brain Boyz, created by the Old Ones as the controllers of the Orkoids. But they're not the Old Ones themselves. The Old Ones are lizardy. But yes, they're dead (or at least no longer players on the galactic stage).

Finally, people keep getting all excited about how "fast" the Tau developed technology. But it still took them 6,000 years to get from mastery of fire and the wheel to their current state. That's good, but not unnaturally so. Consider the advances humanity has made from 4,000 BC to 2,000 AD?

[Baron Spikey]

Finally, people keep getting all excited about how "fast" the Tau developed technology. But it still took them 6,000 years to get from mastery of fire and the wheel to their current state. That's good, but not unnaturally so. Consider the advances humanity has made from 4,000 BC to 2,000 AD?

Exactly what I think, and imagine how much further we would have advanced if it wasn't for all these pesky wars and border divisions.

[eldargal]

Four thousand years actually, the Ethereals appeared 'as the 37th millennium drew to a close'. So The Tau went from stone/bronze age tech to technology roughly equal to the Imperium in the same time Western civilization went from bronze age tech to our current levels. That is accelerated growth. In addition the claim that hte Tau could advance tech faster as they were united and peaceful is really a big leap, given that human history shows that war breeds technological development. That whole Nuclear Age thing.:)

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

I honestly think that the Necrons are behind the creation of the Ethereals, at least because the Tau rose to power so rapidly. Not my only reason, but rail cannon technology and gauss weapons are essentiall one and the same. Both rely on a field to accelerate particles. Farsight possibly was influenced by the Necrons, and the Tau not being able to affect the Warp seems Necron-originated.

[miteyheroes]

Exactly what I think, and imagine how much further we would have advanced if it wasn't for all these pesky wars and border divisions.

Wars are wonderful for developing technology though! Think of aircraft history being driven by WW1/2, or the Cold War space race...
But yes, if we had a group of benevolent dictators intent on making us technologically advanced (and providing plenty of funding for that) we'd probably be developing even faster.

[L192837465]

Wars are wonderful for developing technology though! Think of aircraft history being driven by WW1/2, or the Cold War space race...
But yes, if we had a group of benevolent dictators intent on making us technologically advanced (and providing plenty of funding for that) we'd probably be developing even faster.

From fire to the imperium, didn't humanity take about 20,000 years? It's the 40,000s in the story, we were galaxy spanning by 30,000, And the time we were exploring the stars was around 15,000. 5,000bc to 15,000ad compressed into 6,000 years is ridiculous.

[Baron Spikey]

Four thousand years actually, the Ethereals appeared 'as the 37th millennium drew to a close'. So The Tau went from stone/bronze age tech to technology roughly equal to the Imperium in the same time Western civilization went from bronze age tech to our current levels. That is accelerated growth. In addition the claim that hte Tau could advance tech faster as they were united and peaceful is really a big leap, given that human history shows that war breeds technological development. That whole Nuclear Age thing.:)

It was actually 4,000 years from advanced Black Powder technology to their current level, when the Ethereal appeared the Tau had already mastered cannons, fortresses designed to withstand such weaponry et al.

We also made technological leaps because of the lack of war- the scientific break throughs happening during the 12th century in the Middle East, some of them wouldn't even occurr to the West until 400-500 years later because they refused to accept they didn't know better.

[eldargal]

That doesn't change the fact that the Tau went from relatively primitive technology to Imperium level (which took us, what, twenty five thousand years) in a few thousand.

Some of the breakthroughs happened inthe MidEast in the 12th century, but those regions weren't exactly at peace either. The Eastern empires were either at war with each other or at war with 'us'. Humanity has been at almost perpetual war since the development of states and probably earlier and it has always been a driving force for technological advancement with those willing and able to adapt defeating those who weren't.


It was actually 4,000 years from advanced Black Powder technology to their current level, when the Ethereal appeared the Tau had already mastered cannons, fortresses designed to withstand such weaponry et al.

We also made technological leaps because of the lack of war- the scientific break throughs happening during the 12th century in the Middle East, some of them wouldn't even occurr to the West until 400-500 years later because they refused to accept they didn't know better.

[Mike X]

That doesn't change the fact that the Tau went from relatively primitive technology to Imperium level (which took us, what, twenty five thousand years) in a few thousand.

To be fair, the human species has always had a slow technological development due to religion standing in the way of scientific progress. Perfect examples are stem cell research, cloning, and the Inquisition appearing in five different eras: Medieval, Spanish, Portuguese, Roman, and Imperial.

Maybe the Tau just never had to dodge the obstacles of religion?

[miteyheroes]

To be fair, the human species has always had a slow technological development due to religion standing in the way of scientific progress. Perfect examples are stem cell research, cloning, and the Inquisition appearing in five different eras: Medieval, Spanish, Portuguese, Roman, and Imperial.

Maybe the Tau just never had to dodge the obstacles of religion?

On the other hand, maybe the Tau never had religion promoting science like we did? Just think, without religion we wouldn't have universities...

And the Vatican is funding adult stem cell research (it just doesn't like embryo stem cell research): http://www.nowpublic.com/health/vatican-funds-stem-cell-research-2611704.html

[Pendragon38]

On the other hand, maybe the Tau never had religion promoting science like we did? Just think, without religion we wouldn't have universities...

Thats not true.......Religion is/was the down fall for man's progression in science and the start of wars and mass genocide and FEAR there flocks in too believing that some stuff is witchcraft or worse or convert or fear my wrath. And Universities been around way longer than 2/3rds of Regilions

[Mike X]

On the other hand, maybe the Tau never had religion promoting science like we did? Just think, without religion we wouldn't have universities...

This is a new take on science the Vatican has shown recently. And by "recently", I mean within the past 25-50 years, but only because science is becoming greater than religion and religions must now play nice to science.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

This is a new take on science the Vatican has shown recently. And by "recently", I mean within the past 25-50 years, but only because science is becoming greater than religion and religions must now play nice to science.

About time!

[Connjurus]

Let's keep this discussion on-topic, shall we? Whatever your personal feelings on religion are, there is no need to share them in a way that you think might or could offend anyone.

[rogue.trader.voril]

It is possible for the Tau to have evolved so fast on their own, but I wouldn't put it past the Eldar to plant the Etherials either. What better way to focus their goals than to unite them under one rule early on? We should have been so lucky. Look at the battery...
1748 - Benjamin Franklin first coined the term "battery" to describe an array of charged glass plates.
1800 - Alessandro Volta invented the voltaic pile and discovered the first practical method of generating electricity.
1839 - William Robert Grove developed the first fuel cell, which produced electrical by combining hydrogen and oxygen.
1839 to 1842 - Inventors created improvements to batteries that used liquid electrodes to produce electricity.

Baghdad Battery, excavated from Sumerian sites in southern Iraq, dating back to at least 2500 BCE

This has been a common occurance throught our history. Rewrite our history without that kind of loss and we would have fought the battle of 1812 with Lasrifles :)

[Grailkeeper]

Another question is whether we should accept Xenology as canon?

it certainly radically alters the fluff for some xenos races- step forward H'rud

[Orannis]

That doesn't change the fact that the Tau went from relatively primitive technology to Imperium level (which took us, what, twenty five thousand years) in a few thousand.

Some of the breakthroughs happened inthe MidEast in the 12th century, but those regions weren't exactly at peace either. The Eastern empires were either at war with each other or at war with 'us'. Humanity has been at almost perpetual war since the development of states and probably earlier and it has always been a driving force for technological advancement with those willing and able to adapt defeating those who weren't.

The Tau have met constant threats since leaving their home-world, mostly from the Orks, but other alien races aswell. Also, as Tau only live for around 40 years and only need 4 hours of a sleep a night. The drive for them to achieve is far greater then the average human who can spend decades working on a breakthrough in their field. The Earth Caste live and work in close groups, and when exhorted by the Ethereal's to produce equipment its not surprising how fast they can do it as they are not being held back like our scientist who are funded only on projects with profitable results.

Add in the fact that some of the Tau's technology has been gifts from other races. Such as the Demiurgs Ion Cannons, used on their tanks and spaceships. They also back engineered things they salvaged from other races, like the ability to skim the warp being taken from Imperial ships.
Also the Tau were in the mids of a civil war until the Ethereal's arrived. The Earth Caste had black powder weapons. With the influence of the Ethereal's they have been focused on progress for the greater good.

Also the Baghdad Battery goes into the realms of pseudo archaeology. The device is one of many that we just don't fully understand its uses yet. But the likelihood of it being a battery is highly improbable.

[Baron Spikey]

That doesn't change the fact that the Tau went from relatively primitive technology to Imperium level (which took us, what, twenty five thousand years) in a few thousand.
Actually closer to 12,000, the Imperium is the faded echo of a more glorious, technologically superior past.

[eldargal]

That is a little harsh. We don't know what it is, and the battery theory is plausible, as are quite a few others. The Dendera lights, that is pseudo-archaeology, as nifty as it would be if the ancient Egyptians were blasting lightning around.:rolleyes:


Also the Baghdad Battery goes into the realms of pseudo archaeology. The device is one of many that we just don't fully understand its uses yet. But the likelihood of it being a battery is highly improbable.

[rogue.trader.voril]

Also the Baghdad Battery goes into the realms of pseudo archaeology. The device is one of many that we just don't fully understand its uses yet. But the likelihood of it being a battery is highly improbable.

Granted we don't know what the intended use was for the Baghdad Battery, but the fact is that it works like a battery. Necessity being the mother of invention and all, alternate uses almost always come up later. I'm not implying the Egyptians were all wondering how to power their iPods :)

It worked like a battery. The tech was lost and reinvented. It's not like it sat on a shelf for 2500 years and a new use for it came up. All I'm saying.

[Mike X]

Let's keep this discussion on-topic, shall we? Whatever your personal feelings on religion are, there is no need to share them in a way that you think might or could offend anyone.

It's actually 100% on topic, and absolute truth. In fact, you shouldn't even be playing 40K if you're going to be offended by counter-religion statements, considering the Emperor himself forbid any religious practices whatsoever because of religion's ruination of mankind (read 'The Horus Heresy: Tales of Heresy').