New Imperial Assassin Stats

[Bigred]

So this statline has been floating about, and said to be baseline stats for Imperial Assassins.

I would assume they would be arriving with the Q1 Grey Knight codex.

WS:8 BS:8 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:7 A:4 Ld:10 SV:4+/4+i

Move thru cover
Fleet
Fearless

Thats quite the upgrade from what we have now, and is taking into account the new high BS rules from the 5th rulebook. I would assume that once dressed up with the various Assassin Clade special rules and equipment these folks would be quite nasty.

[Duke]

My wallet officially hates you Bigred.

There are so many things about the GK release that have me excited... This is just another brick in the wall.

I wonder if they will still keep the different temples as independent selections, or if they will be upgrades for the same basic assassain. Or quite possibly if different assassains were in different sections, similar to what Blood Angels did with dreads.

Duke

[scadugenga]

Those stats actually seem just a bit over the top.

I can buy WS/BS in the 6 range, but 8? That would put them as the most accurate shots in 40k.

[Bigred]

As with all things, it all depends on the points. I could see 8s for BS/WS for assassins. It makes them very lethal balanced out with not being to terribly difficult to kill. The current ones are quite underwhelming in use with all the super stat units and characters out there.

They are trained to kill heroes after all. I always thought it was sad that the current ones are best suited to killing rank and file models while avoiding the big stuff.

[Paul]

Those stats actually seem just a bit over the top.

I can buy WS/BS in the 6 range, but 8? That would put them as the most accurate shots in 40k.

Wait so abducted children with neural and cybernetic enhancement, limited psychic abilities, lifelong training, the most well constructed rifles in the galaxy, and a mask which allows them to see thousands of yards with ease are the best shots?

NO WAI

[Mike X]

Those stats actually seem just a bit over the top.

I can buy WS/BS in the 6 range, but 8? That would put them as the most accurate shots in 40k.

You're kidding, right? They're assassins.

Besides, if it's like the previous codex, you can only field one per army (IIRC), so it's not that scary.

[BuFFo]

Wait...

You mean my Vindicare can actually HIT more then 4 times a game? And the other 3 can actually kill more than MAYBE one marine, before dying to punches in turn?

[Sothalor]

Hmm, that's an interesting spread of stats. I like the fact that those stats seem to tell a story: an Imperial Assassin is hideously skilled and stronger and tougher than your average human (none of that is surprising), but they aren't unstoppable juggernauts, being only slightly more durable than the average marine.

Gotta wonder though: if assassins are WS 8, what will Grey Knight Grand Masters be rocking?! :eek: It's hard to imagine all assassins having higher weapon skills than the toughest of the Grey Knights.

[isotope99]

I think there should be more variation, BS8 makes sense for a vindicare but not for an eversor, where WS8 makes more sense.

I'd also like to see them get the ability to target whichever models they want in shooting and combat. Otherwise, with no eternal warrior, they are going to be easy prey for S8+ weapons even with a 4+ inv save.

[fuzzbuket]

bugger am i the only one who wanted more temples but still kept assassins!

and each temple had a different stat line

not just a custom-make-your-own-assassin- temple.


bah humbug !

[BlackKnight15624]

I understand assassins having WS/BS 8, what I don't get is why all assassins would have the same stat line. If an assassin had a base stat line of, say, WS/BS 5, then depending on the clade they were from, have it upgraded, that'd be cool. So a Vindicare would be WS 5 BS 8, an Eversor WS 8 BS 5. Extrapolate that to the other temples and you have some wildly varying assassins. I just can't see a Clade Vanus infocyte being nearly as skilled at either shooting or melée as the aforementioned temples.

[Lockark]

If this stat line is true. I got a feeling fluff wise the assassin temples are not going to be organized the same way they are now.

Your still going to have your major temples we know now. But then there are going to be countless minor temples that the order of assassination can draw from. Maby similar in structure to space marines and there founding chapters.


There being were the "make your own assassin" comes in.


Just speculation.

[Defenestratus]

Wait so abducted children with neural and cybernetic enhancement, limited psychic abilities, lifelong training, the most well constructed rifles in the galaxy, and a mask which allows them to see thousands of yards with ease are the best shots?

NO WAI

Sorry, when a Phoenix lord is 7 and has been "training for lifetimes", has the Eldar's BEST technology AND are blahblahblah<all the rest of the crap you posted> then yes, then 8 is waaay over the top.

[Zweischneid]

Sorry, when a Phoenix lord is 7 and has been "training for lifetimes", has the Eldar's BEST technology AND are blahblahblah<all the rest of the crap you posted> then yes, then 8 is waaay over the top.

I think there's two fallacies here.

1.)
Age does not equal skill/ability. I don't get why people keep arguing that because Eldar get to spend 500 years on a shooting-range, they'd be better shots than someone who's only done so for 5 years, or 5 months. Even in the best of times, there's something like diminishing returns. And besides that, the Eldar (aspects in particular) carry a strong theme of STASIS, of being ritually encrusted in outdated ways. Eldar are far WORSE at the things they do BECAUSE they are so old, unchanging, unable to adapt and adopt in ways the younger races can.

Anyway, by your logic, how come the Phoenix Lord has a higher BS than a Necron Warrior? The latter is clearly ALOT older.

2.)
The above discussion aside, I think game stats don't necessarly need to reflect any particular in-game event or quality. Phoenix Lords don't have high stats because they train more or longer, but because they're supposed to represent heroic figures, protagonists of the game, and higher stats (more wounds, etc..) bring that feeling to the game. In turn, Assassins are supposed to simulate that "assassin-feeling" from novels, movies, etc... . the blade in the dark, bullet through the head, etc.. that even the "protagonists" fear (as opposed to the random dakka-dakka-dakka of the unnamed goons that any action-hero wouldn't even acknowledge).

In that sense, high Assassin stats aim to simulate this "feeling" of a lethal assassin lurking. They don't need to measure up with any in-game logic whatsoever

--------------
www.highstreetblues.com

[MC Tic Tac]

As it stands now (before special rules/wargear etc) all I'm still seeing:

T4, 2 Wounds 4++ = Still bolter/las fodder in my book.

[scadugenga]

Wait so abducted children with neural and cybernetic enhancement, limited psychic abilities, lifelong training, the most well constructed rifles in the galaxy, and a mask which allows them to see thousands of yards with ease are the best shots?

NO WAI

Lifelong training--so what, 60 years, maybe?

So, my Autarch who has been progressing through the warrior paths for centuries just qualifies for Marksmen?

And they shoot better than a Phoenix Lord who has been fighting since the Fall? (10k+years)

Yeah, I pretty much think that's over the top.

And only the Vindicare gets the mask.

So I'll see your "No WAI!" and raise you with a snarky "Nom Nom."



1.)
Age does not equal skill/ability. I don't get why people keep arguing that because Eldar get to spend 500 years on a shooting-range, they'd be better shots than someone who's only done so for 5 years, or 5 months. Even in the best of times, there's something like diminishing returns. And besides that, the Eldar (aspects in particular) carry a strong theme of STASIS, of being ritually encrusted in outdated ways. Eldar are far WORSE at the things they do BECAUSE they are so old, unchanging, unable to adapt and adopt in ways the younger races can.

Right, so a sensei who's been studying martial arts for 20 years can be taken by a yellow belt who studies for 6 months.

Riiiiight. That's a fallacy right there, and highly inaccurate to boot.

And--there's a difference between a shooting range/dojo where yes, you do plateau (you don't stagnate...yeesh, go visit a dojo...), and continuously fighting in a war where the opponents dochange and yes your skills continue to improve because you face different opponents. This is why good martial artists and fencers like to spar/train with different people. So they don't get the plateau effect--or at least, move from one plateau to another.

[fuzzbuket]

As it stands now (before special rules/wargear etc) all I'm still seeing:

T4, 2 Wounds 4++ = Still bolter/las fodder in my book.

no,no,no

an imperial assassin is a human so T3 or for the ervesor maybe T5 (for blood rage or something) and WOW my 1 human sniper although he is the vindicar AND is the best humanity has, still dosnt mean he can survive lazer fire or explosive ammunition and essentialy mini RPG's

anyway if they modernize the vindicars stealth suit
make the erversor infiltrate/scout/ be deployed by 1 man pod and 4rth ed combat consolidate into combat
let the culexus have a psy shield
and let the claudius 1st turn charge,

theyd be survivable

[Zweischneid]

And--there's a difference between a shooting range/dojo where yes, you do plateau (you don't stagnate...yeesh, go visit a dojo...), and continuously fighting in a war where the opponents dochange and yes your skills continue to improve because you face different opponents. This is why good martial artists and fencers like to spar/train with different people. So they don't get the plateau effect--or at least, move from one plateau to another.

Yahright.

I've been doing martial arts for a while. It's not like its comparable. But even if it were... just go to some martial arts tournaments, idealy some mixed-MA or some such so the variety comes in. Than place a bet with all your money on the oldest guy in the tournament and watch what happens. Hell, for some reason those 60, 70 year old Sensei rarely even compete! I wonder why?

It's not Star Wars dude, a Sensei in a Dojo isn't about kicking the 20-year old guys ***. It's different qualities that make a venerable master an asset to a MA-School.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Have you ever read up what a Pheonix Lord really is?? Its not one person but possibly hundreds of personalities that have worn the armour, been absorbed by it and the mind and soul are joined with all with those from every person who wore it before them.

Secondly ive read a novel, cant remember the title were a Callidus assassin was with the group as they entered the Webway, well they came across Jain Zar no less and she was killed by her. Now Yes your assassins are highly trained, enhanced with genetics, drugs and cybernetics, but are they in no way a real match for a Pheonix Lord.

Stat line we have the Sanguinor or Astoroth now toughest in the stats arena, but even then if you where to compare them to a Pheonix Lord, by all right they wouldnt stand up to them.
Age does not necessarily have anything to do with skill, but with commen sense you cant compare a human enhanced assassin with a Pheonix Lord.
Can a Vindicare shoot and kill one yes they can, could they defeat them in H2H, maybe the Callidus can, in pure tactics, strategy and stats no they wouldnt.

Hey i agree ive seen a 65 year old sensei beat the snot out of a black belt half his age, not pretty.
Finally i think those stat lines are just GW being stupid again and again if its true, whats next a SM with Str 10, WS/BS 9 and smites everything with no saves at all.... oh wait i think i hear a runour about that already :P

Keep them the way they are, there tough now, the only thing i would change is upgrade the wargear to 5th ed, new temples and better saves than 5+ Inv. Maybe 3+, 4+ Inv.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Oh forgot to say, tell me of any human, wheter IG/SM or what ever that can fly into the Eye of Chaos, spend a century there, fight everything in there trying to kill you, or corrupt you and then personally and single handedly free a Caftworld that resisted Chaos, taint and destruction and fly it out to safety without dying or taint??

Name anyone in any series, Chapter who did that.
And for anyone wondering who did this by the way....Maugan Ra of the Pheonix Lords thats who.
Now tell me a assassin can do that. I think i remember a dozen assassins being sent after just Abadon and they didnt return from there.

Can a assasin do all that i mentioned??

[Spiv]

Yahright.

I've been doing martial arts for a while. It's not like its comparable. But even if it were... just go to some martial arts tournaments, idealy some mixed-MA or some such so the variety comes in. Than place a bet with all your money on the oldest guy in the tournament and watch what happens. Hell, for some reason those 60, 70 year old Sensei rarely even compete! I wonder why?

It's not Star Wars dude, a Sensei in a Dojo isn't about kicking the 20-year old guys ***. It's different qualities that make a venerable master an asset to a MA-School.

This is by far the dumbest argument I've seen here. The whole thing, not just this response.


But on to the real topic:

I find the WS/BS a littttllleee high. Mainly from the above posters previous point of that those high values are usually reserved for the hero type models to give them that "hero aura".

7 and less I could see. But I also understand that the game is pulling away from the hero aspect. In the end, I'm good with that statline (and I don't play them, but I'd have to play a **** ton of them if this is true) simply because the back end of the statline evens out the front end.

And I love the PLs (Eldar is my main army, and I have 4 of the 6 I field when I can). But as is GW, things are progressing in every army, as it's released. Just sit tight. When the new Eldar 'dex is ready, I'm sure they'll retake the title.

[Zweischneid]

Have you ever read up what a Pheonix Lord really is?? Its not one person but possibly hundreds of personalities that have worn the armour, been absorbed by it and the mind and soul are joined with all with those from every person who wore it before them.

Have you ever read up the White Dwarf where the Emperor of Mankind is nearly strangled by a random Ork Boy, only to be saved by his Warmaster, the greatest of the Primarchs (and later Arch-Traitor), beating back said Ork with the combined might between the two of them (and only than barely so).

If an Ork Boy can almost kill the arguably two greatest warriors of mankind, your average Boyz are arguably also a threat to Phoenix Lords, Necron C'Tan, Chaos Gods, etc.., . Stuff that is mortal dies. And someone having against someone else at some point isn't necessarly a good guide to game-stats.

The same with your Maugan'Ra example. You keep confusing the "logic" of a good story with the "logic" of a board-game. Maugan'Ra is a novel/story protagonist hero. The Assassin's are not, they are board-game representation of action-movie cliches. Two different things.

Also, to refer to my earlier post, a Phoenix Lord may or may not be more skilled. But the game-stats IN NO WAY represent any part of the background. The game-stats represent a certain archetype/cliche in a (as best as possible) translation to a board-game like 40K. In this case, the Assassin's stats are written to bring that "lethal, lurking threat for single characters" to the board (while simultaniously being vulnerable to being boltered down by nameless goons if he isn't careful). High WS/BS/I combined with less-than-spectacular survivability emulates exactly this "theme". Background has NOTHING to do with the game stats.

[Bigred]

Also note that everything Eldar related is outdated as that was an early 4th codex. When comparing what that assassin statline is meant to do, take into account the recent stuff we are seeing out of the Wolves/Nids/Blood Angels/IG for relative comparisons.

I'm sure the Phoenix Lords will be CRAZY statwise when their codex gets redone.

[lustinspace]

sorry guys if i get a bit away from your discoussion there but thats my opinion about the roumored GK release:

honestly, THIS SUCKS!! we already have vanilla marines, wolves and the red bloodsuckers out there we don't need another marine dex. ofc u say now that GK will be totally different from the other marine dexes and will be exciting and new and stuff. but imo the hobby of 40k is OVERCROWDED by marine T4 and power armour armies. i really hate it to only play against marines. where's the variety? where's the fun...

in addition there are some armies that need a new codex much more (necrons, dark eldar, tau; im not talking about CWeldar here cause guys who play them use to complain about the big decision of killing the enemy with a foot or mech army...)

well thats just my opinion.

[Mkvenner]

I still think the whole Assassins having stats better than a Phoenix Lord is made moot by the fact that the Eldar Codex is bloody old. I mean it came out in 2006. Tha's when codex creep began to manifest wholeheartedly in my opinion.

Assassins should have those stats since they are made to kill heroes. They are trained to kill and do that quite well I might add. So if I have stats that are better then your bog standard commander great I should. Also, the stats reflect what Assassins are, a glass cannon. They don't have staying power to roll with the big dogs but have the ability to bloody their noses if something does indeed go wrong for the hero in question. Saying that however, I know that the Phoenix Lords will have to have ungodly stats once their codex is released it is just the name of the game. When people cry that the Phoenix Lords are WS 9 BS8 S5 T5 W3 I7 A5 Ld 10 2+ Sv then I will be loving life. I just cant wait to see how powerful Abaddon gets haha.

In the meantime, these are rumours nothing but. I am ready to finally get some 40k goodness since kind of being turned off to it as of late.

So let the rumours roll!
Cheers

[DrLove42]

*Post contains Spoilers for Black Libriary Books*

To bring the Eldar mortality into modenr times, Path of the Warrior is only a few months old and in that Karandaras gets wasted by a Drednaught. In the game thats not likely...

But it just proves they are as prone to mortality as the next joe

But i agree WS 8 is shocking...and is that gonna be a base for all the different assassins? Cos surely it makes more sense to have the ranged ones with BS 8 but low WS, and the reverse for close combat ones. As if the uber weaponary they get given isn't enough...

[DarkAngelHopeful]

This is an old argument, but if fluff was really anything to be considered on the table top, then Space Marines would be more akin to the Movie Marine list that was made a while back if not better. Spoiler alert, it took an Eversor maxed beyond what the normal chemical capabilities are and a Callidus to take one Joe Luna Wolves marine in Nemesis. And the Eversor was wounded. So, Marines according to fluff really should be gods of war and a regular tactical squad should be able to take down half your army. And a freaking 2000 pt army of space marines should be able to take down your entire planet. So, fluff really doesn't translate to the table top that well for a lot of things.

EDIT: Heck, in one of the short stories I think in the short story HH book, a small team of Spacewolves lasted forever and they took down hordes of Dark Eldar before they escaped or whatever.

[DarkLink]

I still think the whole Assassins having stats better than a Phoenix Lord is made moot by the fact that the Eldar Codex is bloody old. I mean it came out in 2006. Tha's when codex creep began to manifest wholeheartedly in my opinion.

Right. If GW had to go back and redo each and every single individual unit from every single codex whenever they wanted to update a newer, weaker unit they wanted to buff, they'd never get anything done. The Phoenix Lords will get their due when a new Eldar Codex comes out (hopefully).

[Mkvenner]

Besides, the only real thing that helps by having such a high weapon skill is so you can hit 16.67% better then your enemy which in my opinion does not do much. I think there needs to be a benefit for having such a damn high WS other then if you are double the enemy's weapon skill plus 1 they require a 5+ to hit you. Which to me is hard to get. Especially since most people are WS 4 already.

However, that is for another tale.

[Zweischneid]

I think people read too much into the stats. Whats WS8 gonna do? It just means that it'll hit most characters on a 3+ with some fancy, temple-specific weapon in the by-and-large one round he'll live. That's it. They've could've given him a special rule of the sort that simply lets Assassin's hit on a fixed 2+ or 3+ like Kharn for example, or give him re-rolls to hit, or some other thing in that vain. But in the end that would seem kinda overcomplicated given that (a) there is a stat that simulates this effect (i.e. WS) and (b) use of existing mechanics is preferable to adding new special rules.

WS8 against a Character with WS6 or 7 is statistically identical with.. say.. a charging Chaplain with his WS5 + the re-roll (unlike the Assassin, the Special Rule and lower WS makes sense with the Chappy as he gives it to a unit which the Assassin does not).

Those stats don't reflect background, novels, years of combat training or anything else. All they reflect is the fact that an Assassin set to assassinate should hit his targets (Enemy Characters) more often than not because spending points on an Assassin that misses his targets (Enemy Characters) more often than not isn't fun and bad game design. That's all there is to it.

[Vhalyar]

Hey Bigred, I don't suppose that you could clarify what kind of source this came from? Is it random internet buzz or a something you were told directly from a person? Just wondering :)

[Mkvenner]

I think people read too much into the stats. Whats WS8 gonna do? It just means that it'll hit most characters on a 3+ with some fancy, temple-specific weapon in the by-and-large one round he'll live. That's it. They've could've given him a special rule of the sort that simply lets Assassin's hit on a fixed 2+ or 3+ like Kharn for example, or give him re-rolls to hit, or some other thing in that vain. But in the end that would seem kinda overcomplicated given that (a) there is a stat that simulates this effect (i.e. WS) and (b) use of existing mechanics is preferable to adding new special rules.

WS8 against a Character with WS6 or 7 is statistically identical with.. say.. a charging Chaplain with his WS5 + the re-roll (unlike the Assassin, the Special Rule and lower WS makes sense with the Chappy as he gives it to a unit which the Assassin does not).

Those stats don't reflect background, novels, years of combat training or anything else. All they reflect is the fact that an Assassin set to assassinate should hit his targets (Enemy Characters) more often than not because spending points on an Assassin that misses his targets (Enemy Characters) more often than not isn't fun and bad game design. That's all there is to it.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly, and I think having a higher weapon skill in the 8,9 and 10 area should yield some kind of greater benefit.

[whitewolfmxc]

Oh forgot to say, tell me of any human, wheter IG/SM or what ever that can fly into the Eye of Chaos, spend a century there, fight everything in there trying to kill you, or corrupt you and then personally and single handedly free a Caftworld that resisted Chaos, taint and destruction and fly it out to safety without dying or taint??

Name anyone in any series, Chapter who did that.
And for anyone wondering who did this by the way....Maugan Ra of the Pheonix Lords thats who.
Now tell me a assassin can do that. I think i remember a dozen assassins being sent after just Abadon and they didnt return from there.

Can a assasin do all that i mentioned??

Arogant eldar player , have you not heard of the Space Wolves 13th company ? :p

[scadugenga]

Yahright.

I've been doing martial arts for a while. It's not like its comparable. But even if it were... just go to some martial arts tournaments, idealy some mixed-MA or some such so the variety comes in. Than place a bet with all your money on the oldest guy in the tournament and watch what happens. Hell, for some reason those 60, 70 year old Sensei rarely even compete! I wonder why?

It's not Star Wars dude, a Sensei in a Dojo isn't about kicking the 20-year old guys ***. It's different qualities that make a venerable master an asset to a MA-School.

I've been fencing for 18 years, and studied martial arts for longer than that.

So, you're still off base.

And yeah, my 60 year old sifu would actually probably wipe ***. The guy still does over 60 pushups in 60 seconds...

I've competed in kumite, and have my share of trophies on the wall. I'm a good 15 years older than a lot of the competition, and I'll tell you what--I'll take out someone a lot younger with less skill & experience.

No, dude it's 40k. Where the 10,000 year old phoenix lord has not aged physically at all. Still in the "prime" of health, so there's not atrophying of body/mind/skill.

So your argument still falls flat on its face again.

Now to switch gears slightly--I don't care about the WS8--WS is largely not that important anymore--you either hit on 3+ or 4+ the vast majority of the time.

But BS:8? That's...well, BS. hitting on 2+ with a 4+ reroll is what's a little stupid. Even ye old GOD OF WAR Marneus Calgar is only WS6/BS5...

[Mkvenner]

I've been fencing for 18 years, and studied martial arts for longer than that.

So, you're still off base.

And yeah, my 60 year old sifu would actually probably wipe ***. The guy still does over 60 pushups in 60 seconds...

I've competed in kumite, and have my share of trophies on the wall. I'm a good 15 years older than a lot of the competition, and I'll tell you what--I'll take out someone a lot younger with less skill & experience.

No, dude it's 40k. Where the 10,000 year old phoenix lord has not aged physically at all. Still in the "prime" of health, so there's not atrophying of body/mind/skill.

So your argument still falls flat on its face again.

Now to switch gears slightly--I don't care about the WS8--WS is largely not that important anymore--you either hit on 3+ or 4+ the vast majority of the time.

But BS:8? That's...well, BS. hitting on 2+ with a 4+ reroll is what's a little stupid. Even ye old GOD OF WAR Marneus Calgar is only WS6/BS5...

Well thats where I have to come in then. Is it not possible that in game terms the developers wanted to have the unit actually do its job reliably and not flop more than 50% of the time. I for one hate it when my Vindicare would miss. However, if we are going by fluff I think it is possible for an Imperial assassin to have the training, gear, experience, and ability to pull of something like that. Not to mention ye Old God of War Marneus "Young" Calgar might be a little cumbersome in that giant suit of armour. I would believe that a person in a battle tank of a suit would not be as elegant or fast as say a trained assassin who wears a suit built for what an assassin does ie. sneak, strike, and escape.

Those stats still say glass cannon to me. So if I do hit you with my str 4 pistol why in the hell should you care since most heroes are in damned retinues of other super soldiers. If I am paying for a model like a Vindicare assassin I would think the guy would be trained enough to literally pull of every shot he can. I still cant stand seeing heroes and marines missing since they supposedly have the best gear, training, and skill level. However, I just do not see it.

In any case in games rules =/= fluff so trying to justify stats and abilities with fluff will always end up getting people into arguments. These stats were chosen by the developers to actually allow the assassins to "assassinate" other heroes not get squished at first sight. These stats say to me I hit you first and hard, if I don't kill you I am S.O.L..

[DarkLink]

Arogant eldar player , have you not heard of the Space Wolves 13th company ?

Grey Knights don't 'get lost in the warp'. They fly in and go daemon-hunting.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Ahhh Whitewolfmxc, i dont play Eldar actually, i have played using that army though.
I actually play Adepta Sororitas and have since they first came out.

[whitewolfmxc]

Ahhh Whitewolfmxc, i dont play Eldar actually, i have played using that army though.
I actually play Adepta Sororitas and have since they first came out.

ok cool lol but yeah the SW 13th company have been doing stuff like that for 10000 years now and still kicking lol

[Zweischneid]

So your argument still falls flat on its face again.

Now to switch gears slightly--I don't care about the WS8--WS is largely not that important anymore--you either hit on 3+ or 4+ the vast majority of the time.

But BS:8? That's...well, BS. hitting on 2+ with a 4+ reroll is what's a little stupid. Even ye old GOD OF WAR Marneus Calgar is only WS6/BS5...

That is not quite correct. Marneus Calgar is WS6/BS5 AND has a re-roll to hit (aswell as to wound).

So Calgar does shoot/hit infact a bit more accurately than a WS8/BS8 assassin. That's the whole point. WS/BS is just a stat. It is no representation of any unique background characteristic like age, skill, luck or combat experience. All it is is a game mechanic that tells you the Assassin will hit with his assassination attack in close combat 2/3ds of the time. You're gonna tell me that it's unreasonable for a highly trained imperial Assassin to hit his Assassination-targets in close combat 2 times out of 3?

And for the age argument, you still haven't told me why Necron Warriors don't have superiour stats to Phoenix Lords, which would be the logical consequence of your "age argument". They are, after all, ALOT older and have ALOT more battle-field experience.

Phoenix Lords are bad-***** NOT because they are old. They are bad-***** simply because the story demands them to be bad-*** Eldar. Whether they're millenia-old or newly-hatched pointy-ears is immaterial to the logic of a good adventure tale.

[eldargal]

I think people are getting far too worked up over the implications of a rumoured statline.:rolleyes:

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Eldar are basically the gay community of the far future. So whatever heroics they get up to, they also have to watch Wizard of Oz and croon on about their own personal tregedies to anyone who'll listen, then put on a dance performance of it...

[Zweischneid]

I think people are getting far too worked up over the implications of a rumoured statline.:rolleyes:

Whether or not Assassins end up with those stats or not, I think it is a noteworthy and, in my humble opinion, disturbing observation how the use of a high stat like WS8 recieves so much oppobrium as a percieved violation of everthing that is holy in 40K high-end-characters and heroes (i.e. the much cited Phoenix Lord).

On the other hand curiously, something like WS5+re-roll to hit, is perfectly acceptable on even comparatively mundane things like Chaplains or Death Company, even though the latter is statistically identical against WS6/WS7 opponents and arguably superiour against opponents of lesser skill (which in the inverse, gives a reason for high WS for Assassins who are supposed to excel against singular characters but less so against rank-and-file). Yet noone seemed to believe that a Chaplain-statline (and their WS+re-roll) violates their relative standing in the background vis-a-vis.. say.. Phoenix Lords.

It is just a baffling observation of how a - at first glance of the "rumoured" stat-line - a simple, effective and fitting game-stat-simulation of what Assassins ought to do and excel at is opposed on some far-fetched associations of game-numbers with one part of the background or another.

No wonder GW is turning more and more to unique Special Rules for each and every unit and character to simulate different game-effects without angering their irrationally rabid player-base.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Oh, and for what it's worth, that statline should be the baseline stats for assassins, then augmented by each separate assassin type's skills. Personally, I think Vindicare should have Bs 10. It may seem excessive, but if all you've done your whole life is shoot stuff, you'd be that good too. Plus augmentatives and special weapons, you should never miss.

[Xas]

I dont like the BS/WS8 for a simple reason:

it doesnt reflect the respective skills of the temples.

IMO the base-line for the generic assain should be that of a space marine (4++ and W2 and higher I is apropiate) and then modified by temple.

WS8 for a callidus/eversor is quite well hit. they are beeing hit on 5+ by all the lesser beeings that only ahve WS3- but the elite that WS4 represents can hit them on 4s. they themselfes hit allmost any mortal hero on 3s.

WS8 for a vindicare would not be appropriate as he is arguably not trained better than you average assoult marine/vanguard veteran in melee.

for the vindicare a BS8 would not be that over the top in turn as this doesnt help him much over a BS5. I think noone would have complained if he was BS5 and his sniper rifle was master-crafted (basically makeing him BS10!). If you compare him to other charackters you also ahve to take into account the type of weapon they are useing.

the vindicare uses a top-notch single-shot sniper rifle and hits on 2+/4+.
the pheonix lords mostly use big and comparatively unwieldy weapons and still hit on 2+/5+.
to me this is still showing off the hyper-elite skill of the PLords (just imagine maugan ra useing a rapid firing, hip aiming weapon allmost as efficiently as the best, kybernetically and drung enhanced sniper in the whole galaxy... THAT is skill!).

this also is the reason why a eversor should not be WS8 (as he is useing a petty pistol while running and beeing drugged for melee).

[Melissia]

Name anyone in any series, Chapter who did that.

Space Wolves.

A certain great company spent something along the lines of ten thousand years in there.

Recently emerged during Abbadon's latest hissy fit to fight on the Imperial side.




Oh, and for the guy that mentioned Movie Marines, no. They are not fluffy. The Movie Marines rules go against every bit of fluff I've ever read except a few piece of **** marinewank novels which are often maligned even by Marine fanboys.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Sorry i dont read much with Space Marines in mind, least of all the Space Puppies (least favourite of all the SM armies). Long story dating back with old freinds and his puppy army, i grew to dislike it.

I know of the 13th company just not a lot of there history or fluff to be honest. So didnt know they spent time in the Eye actually. oh well.
Im corrected there.

Still are'nt they considered more feral than their brothers, showing strong canine genetic deviancy or something?? again im not too sure here.

As for stat line, i think they still need to make it plausible to each temple, not just take a typical GW lazy day and make them all the same and generic. Vinidicare would always have a higher BS, Callidus a higher WS and so forth.
Again give them unique rules, not necessarily higher stats. IF GW start or should i say continue with this Uber levelling up of characters, and special units, where does it stop?? IN the far distant future the IG stay at home and just send in some "...add name" super, heroic, epica,l legendary guy/gal to fight off the whole orc invasion consisting of two equally super, mechanized, giant, monstrous, bless by Godz and so forth Ork warboss and his faithful mate.

If this is the way GW go, then expect every future codex to have SC's of over powered kiling units, who mop the floor of a whole squad and cant be killed by no less than a baneblade or titan.
where does the stat line stop??

[Torcano]

Some people who claim to be Eldar fanbois are sorely mistaken in their understanding of the fluff. To clarify:

Phoenix Lords are NOT 10,000 years old. There have been countless different Phoenix Lords, with each donning the armor of his predecessor and inheriting all his memories. While some may live centuries they more often fall in battle far sooner. And I would contend that inheriting memories is entirely different than training for 10,000 years.

But it is all besides the point. The stats are simply a means to effectively represent a character, idea, style, etc on the tabletop. I think we can all agree that say, a BS 8 would be very effective for a Vindicare.

This is utterly independent of a PL's stats, they are not related in any form. I don't understand where people got the idea they were.

[Calypso2ts]

I think the idea of reroll's is an excellent point, how a re-roll can be used to create beneficial results on the table top without an overwhelming stat line.

I think somthing along the lines of The Sanguinor would be appropriate for an Assassin, they should be ASSASSINS for specific high value targets, not necessarily overwhelming battle field combat monstrosities.

[Melissia]

Well BS8 is just BS5 with rerolls (not exactly but you get the idea) anyway.

[erwos]

As it stands now (before special rules/wargear etc) all I'm still seeing:

T4, 2 Wounds 4++ = Still bolter/las fodder in my book.
Entirely correct. And it's not even just bolt or las fire - some BP+CCW marines could probably rip an assassin with those stats up in combat. The only way I could see it being worthwhile would be if it had some sort of special ability to allow the assassin's owner to select casualties from the squad it just hammered.

[DarkLink]

The only way I could see it being worthwhile would be if it had some sort of special ability to allow the assassin's owner to select casualties from the squad it just hammered.

Well, that is exactly what the Vindicare does with its shooting attacks;). Assassins aren't intimidating because of their statline, but because of their special rules.

[Zweischneid]

Well, that is exactly what the Vindicare does with its shooting attacks;). Assassins aren't intimidating because of their statline, but because of their special rules.

I would still assume that the Vindicare gets "nerfed" to pick only enemy targets.

No more shooting your own Lone Wolves for KPs and such nonsense.

[Mr.Pickelz]

i do hope they keep and/or add more special shots to the vindicare and others as well, not just a rules update but added stuff to make em worth the extra points they'll most likely jack them up to. :cool:

[Sarpedon]

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that the Bloodthirster of Khorne has a woping weaponskill of 10!! and we a griping about an 8? Does this 10 mean that the Bloodthirster is most skilled fighter in the game? No, i don't think so. Its simply a game mechanic to represent a skilled unit.

[Lord Anubis]

Actually, the thing that bugs me the most about this is the idea that Assassins are going to stay lumped with Grey Knights even though it sounds like the Inquisition's being stripped away.

Don't get me wrong. I was always a little miffed when assassins became an "Inquisition-only" thing, but there was at least a degree of fluff-logic to that. To leave the assassins teamed up with the Grey Knights (and no one else) just seems... weird.

Perhaps GW's planning something clever and we'll see another "free with White Dwarf" twelve-page Codex: Assassins. :)

[Artein]

There will be Inquisition in Codex:Grey Knights.

[Immortal]

I can easily see GW reprinting the same of close to the same rules in follow on Codeces like Witch Hunter (SoB) and such. But I agree, pairing them with only Grey Knights is odd and un-fluffy.

[Bigred]

more things i've heard:

Its a Grey Knights/Inquisition codex.

Regarding assassins, a couple of tidbits:

Vindicare: Unlimited special rounds, possibly with more new types added.
Culexus: Animus Speculum is S:5 AP:1 Assault:2 and gets +2 shots per psycher in the target squad (goodbye IG Battle Psycher Choirs)

[DarkLink]

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that the Bloodthirster of Khorne has a woping weaponskill of 10!! and we a griping about an 8? Does this 10 mean that the Bloodthirster is most skilled fighter in the game? No, i don't think so. Its simply a game mechanic to represent a skilled unit.

Well, a Bloodthirster is an immortal Greater Daemon of Khorne, the Warp God of War, and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy.

An assassin is just a human with some fancy augmentations. A lot like a Space Marine, though the details differ a lot. And yet the assassin has a WS that's double that of a Space Marine? Higher than that of even the most powerful and legendary Space Marines, both loyalist and traitor? Including such singularly skilled combatants like Grey Knight Grand Masters, Chaos Lords, Abaddon, Kharn, Marneus mother-$@*#&* Calgar?

Sure, people seem to be caring a bit too much. But they are right that WS 8 just doesn't make sense.


There will be Inquisition in Codex:Grey Knights.

To quote Harry (or maybe Stickmonkey, but I'm pretty sure it was Harry); "Last time it was Inquisition with a dash of Grey Knights. This time it's the opposite, a Grey Knight codex with some Inquisition [paraphrased]."

[Lockark]

WS8 means Gaurd hit's you on 5's, and Space marines hit you on 4's. I think that's fair enough for something like a assassin. It's meant as a CHARACTER KILLER after all.


I'd like to point out the WS9 death leaper, witch Spacemariens can only hit on 5's.

=P

[DarkLink]

WS8 means Gaurd hit's you on 5's, and Space marines hit you on 4's. I think that's fair enough for something like a assassin. It's meant as a CHARACTER KILLER after all.


I'd like to point out the WS9 death leaper, witch Spacemariens can only hit on 5's.

=P

The death leaper is a special character, however. WS 9 isn't unreasonable then. But what's so special about an assassin that it gets WS 8? How is an assassin so much more skilled than, say, a Space Marine? WS 5 or 6 wouldn't be unreasonable. Even WS 7 for the cc assassins. But why 8?

[Lockark]

The death leaper is a special character, however. WS 9 isn't unreasonable then. But what's so special about an assassin that it gets WS 8? How is an assassin so much more skilled than, say, a Space Marine? WS 5 or 6 wouldn't be unreasonable. Even WS 7 for the cc assassins. But why 8?

there is more then one Death Leaper. The death leaper is less a special character and more a rare lictor variant.


As for why WS8? Because it's a Assassin? Assassin's don't train to kill your basic foot sloggers. They train to kill the biggest, baddest, toughest, and most elite S.O.B's in the galaxy.

When a Space marine chapter goes rouge, there the ones that get sent out to kill the rouge chapter master.

Chaos Lords, Ork War bosses, Farseers, the list goes on. Assassin's are set out to kill these target's. No if's, and's, or buts. They don't fight for honour like space marines. They fight to win.

They have been studying every aspect of your fighting style and know what move your going to make before you even know your going to make it.


Why WOULDN'T a assassin know how to take on there target mono-a-mono? Why would they be on par skilled or even less skilled then the target's there being sent after? They are meant to be character killers after all.




Even shooty assassins would be a force to reckon with in CC. Anything after that just being the gear that each temple specializes in.

[Valkerie]

I think people are getting far too worked up over the implications of a rumoured statline.:rolleyes:


Amen. Can we at least wait until the codex comes out before crying about the end of the world?:)

[DarkLink]

there is more then one Death Leaper. The death leaper is less a special character and more a rare lictor variant.

Bah, details.



As for why WS8? Because it's a Assassin? Assassin's don't train to kill your basic foot sloggers. They train to kill the biggest, baddest, toughest, and most elite S.O.B's in the galaxy.

When a Space marine chapter goes rouge, there the ones that get sent out to kill the rouge chapter master.

Chaos Lords, Ork War bosses, Farseers, the list goes on. Assassin's are set out to kill these target's. No if's, and's, or buts. They don't fight for honour like space marines. They fight to win.

They have been studying every aspect of your fighting style and know what move your going to make before you even know your going to make it.

Why WOULDN'T a assassin know how to take on there target mono-a-mono? Why would they be on par skilled or even less skilled then the target's there being sent after? They are meant to be character killers after all.

Even shooty assassins would be a force to reckon with in CC. Anything after that just being the gear that each temple specializes in.

None of this answers why Assasins in particular get WS 8, when nothing else in the 40k universe that trains nonstop to kill their enemies as brutally as possible for hundreds and hundreds of years gets it:p.

[Bikeninja]

Everything in his statement explains exactly why the assassin should have such a high WS. Looking forward to this one. They should be awesome.

[DarkLink]

Everything in his statement explains exactly why the assassin should have such a high WS. Looking forward to this one. They should be awesome.

Not quite. It explains why he should have a high weapon skill. It doesn't explain why the weapon skill has to be so high compared to all sorts of other models in the game that, logically, would be more skilled than the assassin in outright hand to hand combat.

Remember, the big reason why assassins are deadly is not because they are so much more skilled than even the most skilled of opponents. It's because they catch those opponents with their pants down and kill them before they get a chance to defend themselves. Not to say that they aren't skilled, but the argument that "they should have that high a WS because they spend all their time training to kill all sorts of crazy stuff?" Well so does everyone else.

There are quite a few groups that I can think of that go through much more severe training, or have so many more years to build up their skill and experience, that the argument falls flat. If an assassin can train for one or two hundred years and get to WS 8, why can't a 200-300 year old Space Marine? A 400 year old Grey Knight? A 5000 year old Eldar Aspect Warrior? An 8000 year old Dark Eldar Archon? A 10000 year old Chaos Marine Daemon Prince?

The flaw with the argument is that it doesn't actually explain why the assassins get WS 8. He just says that they get it because they deserve it, an argument that collapses when you ask 'well, why doesn't just about everyone else in the 40k universe deserve it too?'

[Sir Biscuit]

None of this answers why Assasins in particular get WS 8, when nothing else in the 40k universe that trains nonstop to kill their enemies as brutally as possible for hundreds and hundreds of years gets it:p.

To be fair, most all of the special characters mentioned DON'T spend all of their time training to fight people. They must necessarily spend some time dealing with the logistics of their organization, planning engagements, organizing reconnaissance and other intelligence gathering, etc. While I'm sure they do train, I can't imagine they have nearly as much opportunity as an imperial assassin, who literally have all day every day to train for just the one thing. Extreme specialization leads to extreme results.

The real WTF comparison here is between an imperial assassin and Kharn, who has WS7. (Though his is kind moot, granted.) If I had to pick someone who is really good at swinging a weapon around, and who spend literally ALL his time doing it, it would be Kharn, so how is he lower? I guess he's been slacking since he got gorechild. :p

Really, though, enough *****ing. All this is is a rebalancing of the game, one codex at a time. Keeping stats down so that stagnant codecies can have stats that match the fluff is just about the dumbest way I can imagine to design 40k. Be happy this is happening, because it means when other armies do get their update, they'll be hella badass. PATIENCE.

[Lockark]

Assassins have high weapon skill because most charaters in the game now have stupid high weapon skills?
Chapter Masters and Chaos Lords have WS6...

Your telling me a Assassin who has trained all his life to be able to kill Space marine Chapter Masters and Traitor legion Lords, should be less skilled then the targets there going after? (Since you keep saying they should be WS5. With WS6 pushing it.)


Like I said. There Assassin's. Why the hell should they not be skilled enough to kill the target's who's job it is for them to kill? Why whould they train a Assassin from birth, and have them be that ineffective at taking down there targets?


Not to mention Space marines start there training at the age of 12-14. Taking boys who have already learned how to fight from there peoples, and refining it. Meaning the space marines use the fighting style they inherit from the people's they recruit from.


Assassin's are chosen from birth. There augmentations, Training, and upbring being all they have ever known since the day they learned to walk. They train to exploit the flaws in any fighting style.


Assassin's grow to be just as old as any space marine to boot. So you can't even argue somehow space marines get more training/live longer.

[Drew da Destroya]

Well, I'd guess the WS8 also takes into consideration the "Pants Down" effect. WS8 doesn't necessarily translate into direct hand-to-hand prowess, much like having a pistol doesn't mean you literally swing your power sword one more time. It's just a game mechanic meant to represent what's happening on the tabletop.

The assassin is WS8 because:
A)They are excellent fighters
B)They've managed to engage on their own terms (say, by setting off an emp device immediately before attacking, scrambling the Space Marine Commander's audio/visual helmet package, temporarily blinding him long enough to get a knife into his power pack, slowing him down for the rest of the fight)
and C) They may have done something previously to sabatoge their target before the battle began, such as poisoning their food, disrupting their equipment, or placing traps in the location where they knew they'd be fighting.

In a straight up boxing match, they'd get knocked out in the second round, but when they're able to engage on their own terms (and if the assassin is on the battlefield, they ARE engaging on their own terms... otherwise, the mission would've been aborted) they stand a much better chance.

At least, that's my interpretation. Overall, though... most of their targets will hit them on a 4+, and they'll hit their targets on a 3+. Pretty much just the WS3 schlubbos who didn't stand a chance anyway will need 5's to hit.

[DarkLink]

The real WTF comparison here is between an imperial assassin and Kharn, who has WS7. (Though his is kind moot, granted.) If I had to pick someone who is really good at swinging a weapon around, and who spend literally ALL his time doing it, it would be Kharn, so how is he lower? I guess he's been slacking since he got gorechild. :p

Exactly my point. The oddity isn't that the assassin has a high WS. It's that it is so much higher than some other things that we know are almost certainly more skilled than the assassin.

On a side note, there's no reason for a Vindacare to have WS 8. They spend all their time shooting, not training for CC. A high WS would still be reasonable, but I would question anything more than WS 5. And vise versa for BS on the other assassins.



Really, though, enough *****ing. All this is is a rebalancing of the game, one codex at a time. Keeping stats down so that stagnant codecies can have stats that match the fluff is just about the dumbest way I can imagine to design 40k. Be happy this is happening, because it means when other armies do get their update, they'll be hella badass. PATIENCE.

I agree with this. Part of why I was surprised that the DE Harlequins are identical to the current ones. I would have thought they would have been updated...

[Count Fenring]

To be fair, most all of the special characters mentioned DON'T spend all of their time training to fight people. They must necessarily spend some time dealing with the logistics of their organization, planning engagements, organizing reconnaissance and other intelligence gathering, etc. While I'm sure they do train, I can't imagine they have nearly as much opportunity as an imperial assassin, who literally have all day every day to train for just the one thing. Extreme specialization leads to extreme results.

The real WTF comparison here is between an imperial assassin and Kharn, who has WS7. (Though his is kind moot, granted.) If I had to pick someone who is really good at swinging a weapon around, and who spend literally ALL his time doing it, it would be Kharn, so how is he lower? I guess he's been slacking since he got gorechild. :p

Really, though, enough *****ing. All this is is a rebalancing of the game, one codex at a time. Keeping stats down so that stagnant codecies can have stats that match the fluff is just about the dumbest way I can imagine to design 40k. Be happy this is happening, because it means when other armies do get their update, they'll be hella badass. PATIENCE.

That logic is defeated by a character like a Phoenix Lord that does nothing but fight, then move along the web way to another fight, etc...until the literal end times.

They don't have logistics, they simply fight continuously, moving from one battlefield to the next. No sleep, no food, just war. They have been doing this continually for the last 10k years.

Codex creep, maybe so. Eldar will get their buff eventually. I would agree the assassins have needed a boost, but they are not mythic type beings like Phoenix Lords, nor are they even anywhere near what a Space Marine chapter master is.

It seems this rumor is more along the lines of loch-ness monster sightings.

[Lockark]

Yes. Because a Imperial Assassin sent out to kill a Rouge Chapter master, should get his *** kicked by the target his was specifically dispatched to kill.

That makes perfect scene.

[DarkLink]

Yes. Because a Imperial Assassin sent out to kill a Rouge Chapter master, should get his *** kicked by the target his was specifically dispatched to kill.


If the Chapter Master never sees the assassin coming, then it doesn't matter who would win in a fair fight. That's the whole point of being, y'know, an ASSASSIN.

A Chapter Master isn't exactly a pushover. The Inquisition would be incredibly stupid if their plan to kill him was just "hey, lets send out this guy to challenge him to a duel, and hope he wins".




That makes perfect scene.

Um... right... ?
(:p)

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Ok correct me if im wrong, maybe someone knows more about this than me. But didnt an assassin kill one of the Primarchs that fell and went over to Chaos??
I remember hearing about it a long time ago, think it may have been the Night Lords Primarch, and potentially a Vindicare that killed him.
Does anyone have information that could clarify this for us?
As if thats the case, then a few century old Chapter Master is nothing compared to a Primarch with Chaos on his side, and if an Assassin could kill this guy then maybe just maybe they do deserve to be a little stronger in there primary field of stats.

[Drew da Destroya]

Yeah, an Assassin killed Night Haunter sometime after the Siege of Terra, although it's a bit suspect as he apparently let her in to do it.

From the Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Night_Haunter#The_Horus_Heresy):


Night Haunter was eventually killed, assassinated by the Callidus M'Shen. It is believed she was allowed to infiltrate his palace on Tsagualsa, as she encountered no guards between herself and his throne room. Confronted with her, he simply said:
"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."
The vid-log then shows M'Shen leaping forward, although the kill was never confirmed, as the video feed cuts out right before they fight. It is believed that Night Haunter allowed himself to be killed: he saw himself as a murderous and corrupt villain, the very thing he sought to destroy. Regardless, his final words are considered one of the great enigmas to the Imperium's history.

[Lockark]

If the Chapter Master never sees the assassin coming, then it doesn't matter who would win in a fair fight. That's the whole point of being, y'know, an ASSASSIN.

A Chapter Master isn't exactly a pushover. The Inquisition would be incredibly stupid if their plan to kill him was just "hey, lets send out this guy to challenge him to a duel, and hope he wins".


*Face palm*

The high weapon skill represents the fact the assassin knows how to take advantage of combat situations.

According to your argument Assassin's shouldn't even be a table top unit. Just a upgrade you take that removes the Enemy's HQ before the game starts.



The problem is that isn't how 40k works, because in 40k you have to give your opponent a accualy chance to defend him self.


Thus why the Assassin is on the table top, and why the assassin has such high weapon skill. To represent the Assassin Stalking the battle field, and searching for his/her target.

[oiad]

Apparently these rumours came from Big Red, who's apprently pretty reliable, right? There are other sources I've read that would contradict what he's said, with a more favorable WS/BS/I = 6 profile. Fair enough if GW do go ahead with Big Red's version, though it really doesn't sort out the main problems with the assassins. Foremost, Assassins need to be able to deal out more damage per turn and gain better survivability. Increasing the WS/BS does this slightly but isn't the most effective way of doing so. If this remains the only real improvement that shows GW have gone in the opposite way to making a sensible decision - to please morons or kids who are more easily impressed with improved profiles than actual gaming potential.

Also the whole argument with Death Leapers/Lictors is moot when you consider that a Swarmlord/Hive Tyrand are just as skilled. If you wanna follow that path then relatively Grand Masters and Brother-Captains would have a similar profile to this proposal too. Funny, I bet half as many people here wouldn't stand for that... :rolleyes:

[DarkLink]

According to your argument Assassin's shouldn't even be a table top unit. Just a upgrade you take that removes the Enemy's HQ before the game starts.

Well, an assassin really shouldn't be a tabletop unit. Except maybe the Vindacare. It would be much more realistic to keep them in the fluff, or to just auto-kill something.

That wouldn't be as fun, though. Assassins are included because of Rule of Cool, not because it makes sense. Just because of that it's kind of a moot point.



Thus why the Assassin is on the table top, and why the assassin has such high weapon skill. To represent the Assassin Stalking the battle field, and searching for his/her target.

Regardless of the semantics of the meaning of the WS stat, the crux of my argument is that you're presenting the 'why' without the 'how'.

'Assassins are good because they're supposed to be good' isn't a solid argument when things don't add up. Until you provide the 'how', the argument doesn't stand up. How does a 100 year old assassin manage to be more skilled in hand to hand combat than, say, a 5,000 year old Striking Scorpion Exarch? Why is the assassin's training so much more efficient than the exarch, who has a similar skillset but vastly more training time and real world experience?

If you can explain away that discrepancy in relative weapon skills, then you explain why such an oddly high WS. Simply saying 'assassins have that WS because they hunt really tough people' isn't an argument, though. That's a statement of debatable fact.

I find it more likely, though, that GW is just starting to take advantage of the fact that stats go up to 10. High stat models are, and I suspect will, become more and more common. So it's likely that the WS 8 doesn't make sense now, but given another two decades when GW finally updates the rest of the codices then it will fit in much better.

Incidentally, this ties in with the Rule of Cool again. GW's finally starting to realize that units with crazy stats can be a lot of fun, unlike a few editions ago when there were only like five units in the game with a WS of 6 or more.



*Face palm*

Oh, and chill out, dude;). The semantics of the meaning of a stat value during a pointless internet argument aren't that important. We're all friends here, even if I did make fun of one of your typos:p.

[DarkLink]

Apparently these rumours came from Big Red, who's apprently pretty reliable, right?

To be honest, I don't have the slightest clue where or how Big Red gets his rumors. They just kinda show up. His rumors usually get overshadowed by stuff from one of the guys on Warseer, who are known to have reliable sources and a proven track record.


If you wanna follow that path then relatively Grand Masters and Brother-Captains would have a similar profile to this proposal too. Funny, I bet half as many people here wouldn't stand for that... :rolleyes:

Actually, I think that a lot of people would be like "hey, a GK Grand Master finally gets the stats he deserves". I've seen plenty of wishlisting on behalf of Gk players where WS 7 Grand Masters is outright demanded. After all, a Grey Knight Grand Master is one of the most singularly powerful individuals in the entirety of the Imperium, excluding none but the Primarchs and the Emperor themselves. And Grey Knights are, in my experience, very popular. I can't remember ever seeing someone saying "man, the Grey Knights are such a stupid chapter".

[oiad]

Haha, this must one of the more grounded forums I've posted on before then, perhaps I finally found the right place! Some forums still seem to believe that TT-to-fluff is highly accurate and (not knowing about the lack of an update for a decade) feel GM's and GKs on the whole are meant to be inferior to other marines at everything other than fighting daemons...

[Tynskel]

I can't remember ever seeing someone saying "man, the Grey Knights are such a stupid chapter".

Man, the Grey Knights are such a stupid chapter!

:)

[DarkLink]

Oh, well there you go. Never mind what I said earlier, people will hate a high WS Grand Master:rolleyes:

[Lockark]

Oh, and chill out, dude;). The semantics of the meaning of a stat value during a pointless internet argument aren't that important. We're all friends here, even if I did make fun of one of your typos:p.


I'm not angry. I'm disappointed I wasted a hour of my life makes posts to someone who dosen't seem to have read anything I posted. Because I HAVE explained why the weapon skill is so high. I've done NOTHING BUT EXPLAIN THAT.


But you keep saying I'm not explaining it. Read my posts. I don't feel like replying to someone who doesn't read them.

=U


But for ****s and giggles here is is bullet point form:


1)It's there job to kill Chapter Masters.
2)Space marines are trained since there 14. Assassins are trained since birth.
3)A Assassin can easily be as old as a Chapter Master if not older.
4)It's there job to kill Chaos Lords, Farseers, and Rouge Pyschers. Some of the most dangerous foes the world of 40k.
5)A Assassin will train all of his life to specialize in killing one of these kinds of opponents. It's safe to assume when you take a Assassin in a game, you were issued a Assassin that specializes in what ever foe your facing across the board.

6)A Assassin is trained to take advantage of what ever situation he's in. A Assassin isn't running across the board and challenging the chapter master to 1-on-1 combat like you said earlier. The Assassin is stalking across the board slowly. When he assaults the chapter master, it's the Assassin jumping out of the shadows. The Chapter Master gets attacks back because he's still a chapter master, and gets a chance to defend him self.

Removing a Character before the game starts is not the kinda of game 40k is, and is a horrible idea with-in the 40k rule set.

There for the Assassin is a Glass Cannon Character Killer that you deploy on the board. It represents the Assassin and the fact if a Assassin is caught by troops before making his target, he's in big trouble.


Not to mention we don't know what other special rules the Assassin's might get to represent there sneakiness. (Such as deploying any wear on the board Marbo style, but being able to assault after.)





Number 7, the most important.You complain that this stateline makes chapter master's push over's. But the way you talk about Assassin's there push overs no more skilled then the average Space marine. Last I checked Lone Space marien's aren't sent out to Assassinate Farseers. (Maby Squads. But never lone Space Marines.)
=|



There are black libery books were Space marines get slaughtered by lone assassins. Especially when going 1-on-1. The only thing that ever saves them is when multiple space marines get together and start out right outnumbering the Assassin eight to one.

Space mariens have to learn many skills and be a sort of jack of all trades. This is so when in combat they can change to rapidly changing conditions. (Many of these skills not even combat related.) In contrast the Assassins are highly specialized killing machines. They kill in one way, and they do it VERY well. But don't except them do do anything eals.

(Give a space marine any gun and they will use it to deadly effect. A Assassin only really know how to use the weapons he trained with. But he knows how to use them REALLY WELL.)

[DelphicFist]

A BS of 8 for a Vindicare fluff wise I have no problem with, especially considering the gun he's using. (Not sure I like the idea of his pistol being BS 8.)

From a game perspective I'm okay with it BS 8 as well for the Vindicare(with Rifle). Even higher I wouldn't have a problem, like 10.

The rest of the assassins fluff or game wise a BS5 sounds about right.

Now I know some people would cringe at a vindicare having a BS10 but Kantor has a BS of 10...or rather game mechanic wise he does. BS5 with a storm bolter equals BS 10 ie: hitting on a 2+ and re rolls hitting on a 2+...the same as BS10.

As for the WS8...maybe for the Callidus or the Eversor...fluff wise that's pushing it a lot. Abbadon is only a 7. I would say Kharn is only a 7 but he hits on a 2+ so he's more of an 11. ;)

Game mechanics wise is WS 8 all that crazy for a Callidus or Eversor? Not really when you think of the say the sargent for the honor guard WS5 and re rolls to hit an wound against IC's. That's hitting 75% of the time against most heroes. While most heroes are striking back with 66% accuracy. With WS8 he's still only 66% accuracy against most targets.

Vindicare and Cluxues should be WS 5.

I think it would be better if the Eversor and Callidus had WS6 and re rolls to hit on the round they charged.

[Lockark]

Ever played Splinter Cell? It makes scene for a Vindicare to have WS8. He doesn't want to run around shooting the place up.

He wants to sneak into position, take his shots, and then sneak away.


In hand to hand he's using that stealth suit to run around snapping people's necks. Just say'in. I don't think it's that much of a stretch. (Not to mention he's still a Vindicate. With out any CC gear, all WS8 means is he's really good at defending him self. A tac squad charging him will still pistol whip him death. +4's to hit, +4's to wound. lol)

[DarkLink]

...and feel GM's and GKs on the whole are meant to be inferior to other marines at everything other than fighting daemons...

Yea-no. Absolutely not, in any way, shape or form. GKs have by far the best training, equipment and candidates of any and all SM chapters. Yes, they use special bullets that kill Daemons. Yes, they are carefully trained to never waiver in their faith. But those bullets and that unshakable faith will kill Tau, or Eldar, or whatever just as well as any other bolters.

Yeah, their training works particularly well against Daemons. But that doesn't mean that they suddenly stop being the bigged, meanest, most powerful Space Marines in the entire 40k 'verse when they face someone other than Chaos.

So, yeah, you did come to the right place:D




I'm not angry.


I didn't say anything about you being angry. I said to chill out because you came across, at least to me, as dismissive and rude. I'm sure you didn't intend that, but sometimes stuff gets lost in translation.

[Lockark]

I didn't say anything about you being angry. I said to chill out because you came across, at least to me, as dismissive and rude. I'm sure you didn't intend that, but sometimes stuff gets lost in translation.

Not when I'm being dismissed my self.

But I guess lost in Translation.

;)

[Mr.Pickelz]

wasn't there a story or something where a evesissor assassin took out a war-boss and his nob retinue, AND destroyed a planet, which also stopped his Waagh! from over taking a sector, yet the assassin only got 86% efficiency, and the lords were disappointed at him.

[DarkLink]

The 86% thing sounds familiar

[JonnyRoxtar]

As long as Lelith Hesperax can one shot an assassin, they can have whatever stats they like.

[oiad]

Ha, we don't even know her new rules yet let alone th assassins. Though talking about the Eldar does remind me the reputed Initiative an assassin will have. It's kinda suggestive of them being on par with the most perceptive Eldar. Possibly more controversial than their skill levels. Anyone have any thoughts?

[bforber]

Don't assassins share the same statline in the current inquisition codexes? Why is everyone complaining about this?

I don't find anything to be particularlly unbalanced about this stat set at all. They'll work just about like any single big hitter in an elite spot. Kill one, maybe two things and get gunned down, (hi marbo, hi doom of malantai.)

[JonnyRoxtar]

Don't assassins share the same statline in the current inquisition codexes? Why is everyone complaining about this?

I don't find anything to be particularlly unbalanced about this stat set at all. They'll work just about like any single big hitter in an elite spot. Kill one, maybe two things and get gunned down, (hi marbo, hi doom of malantai.)

because their stats in ws and bs have gone up by 3 and their I has gone up by 2 plus an extra attack.

Its a hefty increase, thankfully atm its just a rumoured hefty increase.

[DarkLink]

Don't assassins share the same statline in the current inquisition codexes? Why is everyone complaining about this?


Hah, not even close. They're currently WS/BS/I 5, so WS 8 BS 8 and I 7 is a big boost

[JonnyRoxtar]

Ha, we don't even know her new rules yet let alone th assassins. Though talking about the Eldar does remind me the reputed Initiative an assassin will have. It's kinda suggestive of them being on par with the most perceptive Eldar. Possibly more controversial than their skill levels. Anyone have any thoughts?

If I remember this correctly it would make assasins faster than any Craftworld Eldar and faster than most Dark Eldar with the exception of Archons which theyd be level with and Witch lords(cant remember the correct term here) would be 1 above them.

If this statline goes ahead then I can see an assassin in every army that can take them which is dullsville

[bforber]

Hah, not even close. They're currently WS/BS/I 5, so WS 8 BS 8 and I 7 is a big boost

You misunderstood me.

People are saying that each assassin should have an individual stat unit, (Vindicares should have BS 8, Eversor WS 8 etc.) I didn't mean they had the exact same stat block in the GK/WH codexes.

And I don't see assassins being in every single army list. It really just depend on what they offer for elite choices, if they remove the inquisitor restriction, if they include an upgraded deathcult assassin, if they make GK dreadnoughts elite choices, etc.

It's really way too early to make that decision.

[oiad]

I kinda like the idea of both Inquisitors being made HQ choices but that's a different matter.

There have been no rumours to the contrary yet, assassins are still rumoured to use the same entry with options to differentiate the classes.

As for their popularity, it depends on how effective they end up being. Those who like to play purely for competition will play them if they are highly effective. And some will just be switched off by the concept alone, even if they are good. E.g. Some pure-GK players and pure-Sororitas players are unlikely to take assassins just to stick to a pure army list theme, compared to others who will be happy to mix-and-match.

[Lordgimpet]

I think it comes down to what GW intend them to do, obviously IC killers. this can be achieved without stupid stats as per the codex progession seems to becoming. just like 2nd ed ended up being a character driven card game.
Stats aside, as long as they can do what they are intended for and not as a byproduct one man armies i'm fine with whatever statline they use. Such as you could give them equipment that comfirms a wound and or negates saves including invulnterable, heck make them inflict multiple wound of a single hit. Either shot or in CC, somethign like if a model takes a wound its suffers 3 if it has more than one.. that kind of thing.
Give them something like they have prefered enemy USR and I6 to beat most in CC strike order.

CC assasins only need a WS of 6 they can hit a WS10 on a 4+
they only need 2 attacks 3 on a charge to take out a character, but have minimal impact on a squad.

shooters need only 6 also throw in crack shot to remove cover and custom fields.

Give both types the ability to single out thier targets. and make them squishy enough they are used
wisely, and not able to just saunder up the battlefield in the open, shiv the target in the back flip the bird and waltz away. Im not saying they do now just an observation based on current release trends.
It,s just my 2 cents anyway.
Note: and when they do revise the Eldar for 5th screw pheonix lords at least make their tanks/transports affordable, able to SEE in the dark and remember how to turn on targeting computers, because as it stands for a humble gardian to improve shooting they have to die and be put in a wraithguard.

[Lockark]

In the end of the day there still T4 in spandex suits, regardless of how high they make there BS, WS, or I.

A tac squad can rapid fire them to death, or gun butt them into the ground after the 1st round of combat.

There also still only S4, meaning unless they have some sort of special gear byound power weapons/phase swords there only wounding on a +4. All the high WS and I means is it helps them in accualy killing the character before the retinue beats them to a pulp.

High offensive stats sure, but in regards to defensive stats there is nothing to write home about.

[Drew da Destroya]

But didn't you hear they're getting T10, Eternal Warrior?

Also, they wound everyone on a fixed 2+, causing Instant Death. That's for both shooting and CC. It's called the "Assassin RoXoRz ur BoXoRz" special rule.

Totally not unfounded speculation!

[oiad]

Judging from the first set of rumours that sounds about right. :P


In the end of the day there still T4 in spandex suits, regardless of how high they make there BS, WS, or I.
Thank god someone else sees it that way too. They need increased survivability. Add Feel no Pain to that T4/4++ and you have something pretty darn resistent to infantry fire. And it still sounds fluffy. Maybe add Stealth on top of that too and...

[DarkLink]

Thank god someone else sees it that way too. They need increased survivability. Add Feel no Pain to that T4/4++ and you have something pretty darn resistent to infantry fire. And it still sounds fluffy. Maybe add Stealth on top of that too and...

Seeing as the vindicare already forces nightfight checks when you target him... I'd wait until I see the points cost and full rules before complaining about how vulnerable they are.

Plus, glass cannons are perfectly viable.


this can be achieved without stupid stats as per the codex progession seems to becoming.

Well, rules-wise there's no problem. Stupid high WS/BS doesn't have that big of an impact on the way the rules work. And GW might as well eventually get around to handing out higher WS/BS for units that deserve it. Right now it's pretty much GEQ= WS3, MEQ = WS 4, assault unit = WS 5. Anything else is kind of unusual. A bit more variety would be nice.

[Lockark]

Judging from the first set of rumours that sounds about right. :P


Thank god someone else sees it that way too. They need increased survivability. Add Feel no Pain to that T4/4++ and you have something pretty darn resistent to infantry fire. And it still sounds fluffy. Maybe add Stealth on top of that too and...

If Assassins get any USR's, I'd like to see them get Hit and Run, and maby some sort of special rule let let's you take them off the board and redeploy them next turn.(Like the Death Leaper.)

There not out right survivable. But after killing there target, if they can survive a round of combat they can break off and go after someone eals. That will mean they will not always be a free kill point after killing a character.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, Hit and Run, and I think they deserve Marbo-style infiltration.

[oiad]

Hmm, nice idea. Many USRs reasonably suit assassins. H&R could work quite well in cc but would need something extra. Without getting too deep into wishlisting, H&R with a camouflage ability like a tweeked version of Vindicare's Stealth Suit could work well as a default ability, to increase survivability. Hopefully the next round of rumours will provide more clarity on their core rules and show how they intend to improve things.