Warptime Confusion

[Prof. Tesseract]

Greetings.
Sorry if im beating a dead horse by asking about warptime here. All the lounge forum posts ive visited on the subject dont seem to clear up my question, which is this:
One of the members of my gaming group plays CSM, and swears by his DP with the Warptime ability. So far, he has used to rule to force my unit to reroll any hits/wounds against his DP. I understand that the RAW are vague on this ability, so i was wondering if anyone had ever seen the rule used in this fashion.

Example:
The DP successfully casts warptime at the beginning of my (Tau) turn. During my shooting phase, a unit of Fire Warriors shoots the DP with 8 shots, hitting with 5. He then makes me reroll the 5 shots, out of which only 3 hit on the reroll. Of those 3, 2 wound. He then forces me to reroll the 2, and neither gets a wound.

As i was reading this rule today, it seemed to me that the DP may only reroll his hits/misses, not the other player's when targeting the DP. I would hate to burst this guys bubble, because we are close mates and he loves using this ability. It just seems impossible to destroy the DP without a psychic hood or something else that stops him from using the ability at all.

Mind you, this guy isnt an abusive player, nor is he trying to exploit the rules. I just think that there is a misunderstanding of how the rule operates, and am looking for verification or denial of the fact that this is indeed allowed. If so, it seems incredibly overpowered for a 25pt option.

If possible, id appreciate any reference to the rulebook/codex that substantiates this either way, so i dont look like im just whining. Like i said, he is a close mate, and my gaming group is small. Id hate to tarnish my relationship with them by kicking and screaming about a rule that i have trouble beating without empirical evidence that counters this usage. Then again, if this is the legal way to use the rule, then i am fine with it-id just like to know.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Nabterayl]

You're right. I don't think that there's any go-to quote from either codex or rulebook that puts this to rest without any amount of thought. But consider:

The text says "the psyker may re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound."

"The psyker" doesn't roll anything, of course; the player does. But ordinarily we allow the rules to pretend that our warriors are rolling dice. Fortune, for instance, says, "This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes." As with Warptime, the Fortuned unit doesn't roll anything; the player does. We understand "this unit re-rolls" to mean "any player rolling for this unit." This is a normal canon of construction for 40K rules.

Applying this canon to Warptime, "the psyker" must mean "any player rolling for the psyker." Thus, the reason Warptime doesn't allow re-rolls of enemies' to-hit and to-wound rolls is that those rules are not "the psyker's;" i.e., they are not rolled by a player rolling for the psyker.

If that weren't persuasive, then the natural reading of the text would be to say that warptime allows the Chaos player to re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound for each army for the entire turn. After all, "all" means "all," it doesn't mean "the unit to which the psyker using this power is attached," and there is nothing in either the codex or the main rulebook stating that psychic powers affect only the psyker's own unit unless otherwise specified.

Those are the only two possibilities I see in the text. Obviously I think "only the psyker" is the correct one, both because I think that's the correct way to read GW rules, and because the second reading is hax to the point of absurdity.

Your friend's interpretation, while obviously less powerful than re-rolling all to-hit and to-wound rolls that happen anywhere on the board for the entire turn, seems less supported by the text. If he's keying off of all, where does he get the idea that all is limited to rolls that interact with the user of Warptime?

EDIT: Since you say your gaming group is small and your friend is playing in good faith, he might find the flavor text of the ability to be probative. The flavor text says that it "grants the target the opportunity to place his attacks with supernatural precision." It doesn't say that the psyker surrounds himself with a dimensional instability, which warps the passage of time and grants him the ability to avoid the attacks of others, even though that would have followed logically as well. Your friend might be persuaded that his reading must be wrong by the fact that GW specifically called out placement of the Warptime user's attacks as the effect of the time-warp.

[AsgeirArnald]

I think the other warptime thread pretty much answers this question. I brought up the question my friend had which was if a squad that a psyker with warptime was attached to could re-roll hits and wounds. The overwhelming consensus was no. ONLY THE PSYKER can re-roll.

Pg. 88 of C:CSM reads- The power is used at the start of any player's turn. If successful, the psyker may re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound for the entirety of that player's turn.

A squad of fire warriors is not the psyker, therefore they do not re-roll. It doesn't say "the psyker may force his opponent to re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound." That's just my two cents though.

[BuFFo]

"THE PSYKER" means exactly what it means, word for word. It does not mean "The psyker's unit" or "The unit the psyker is fighting".

"THE PSYKER" means the model that is casting warp time can reroll failed hits and wound rolls.

[Vince]

Wow your "friend" has really been using warptime like this? Reading the rule I dont see how anyone could misconstrue it to the point of making you reroll when you shoot at it.

[Prof. Tesseract]

Wow your "friend" has really been using warptime like this? Reading the rule I dont see how anyone could misconstrue it to the point of making you reroll when you shoot at it.

No need to put friend in "quotes'. In defense of both of us, we are both pretty new to the game on the table. He is a long time modeler who just started playing fifth, and i am somewhat of a fantasy convert. So we are both pretty new at interpreting 40k rules.
I think the confusion came from a combination of things. Firstly, the rule as written is somewhat vague to begin with. Secondly, i think he was focused on the words 'all rolls' and the phrase 'either players turn'.
In any case, this has been resolved within our gaming group, and is now being called correctly. Like i said before, the guy was never really a jerk about the rule, i just was cautious about bursting his bubble, as my Tau are typically on the winning side of our games and he seemed to relish in the strength of the ability as previously
interpreted.

Thanks everyone who chimed in on this. I appreciate the clarity you have provided.

[Spanklet]

Ugh... Tau

Spam 9 crisis suits
Spam 9 Broadsides
do the 'fish thing"

Game Over :(

[Prof. Tesseract]

@spanklet:
If that is the only way youve seen Tau played i pity both you and the players that are fielding such a list. Tau are both overspecialized and out of date, and thus require a high level of finesse and tactics to play effectively. In my opinion, such a blunt-force approach as you have suggested with the tau is like trying to hammer a nail with a spoon. In my lists i take no broadsides, never more than 5 crisis suits, and only one devilfish (because it is compulsory with my pathfinders). Using the Tau effectively is all about synergy between units, and using the table effectively. If you would like to open a relevant thread about "spamsuit" tactics and how to beat them, however; i would be more than obliged to give you a good strategy against such lists.

[TheKingElessar]

@spanklet:
If that is the only way youve seen Tau played i pity both you and the players that are fielding such a list. Tau are both overspecialized and out of date, and thus require a high level of finesse and tactics to play effectively. In my opinion, such a blunt-force approach as you have suggested with the tau is like trying to hammer a nail with a spoon. In my lists i take no broadsides, never more than 5 crisis suits, and only one devilfish (because it is compulsory with my pathfinders). Using the Tau effectively is all about synergy between units, and using the table effectively. If you would like to open a relevant thread about "spamsuit" tactics and how to beat them, however; i would be more than obliged to give you a good strategy against such lists.

Apart from the whole 'Only One Fish' thing, I think your list sounds like Fail, so I'd be interested to see you try to convince me otherwise. Is it posted online, can you please provide a link?

I'm not interested in rebuttals to the tune of 'It's not the list that makes the player, blah blah, because there is always a player more skilled than you, and dozens of equivalent skill, just because you rarely play them doesn't make you a genius.

That's not a personal attack, it has been one of those days.

[Spanklet]

@spanklet:
If that is the only way youve seen Tau played i pity both you and the players that are fielding such a list. Tau are both overspecialized and out of date, and thus require a high level of finesse and tactics to play effectively. In my opinion, such a blunt-force approach as you have suggested with the tau is like trying to hammer a nail with a spoon. In my lists i take no broadsides, never more than 5 crisis suits, and only one devilfish (because it is compulsory with my pathfinders). Using the Tau effectively is all about synergy between units, and using the table effectively. If you would like to open a relevant thread about "spamsuit" tactics and how to beat them, however; i would be more than obliged to give you a good strategy against such lists.

I hear ya TKE

I dont play Tau, I just see a lot of Tau broadside spammers insta popping most enemy armor in railgun death storms turn 1 and then crisis suit plasma spam death followup. Not to mention the other units supporting them.

I think that a thread dealing with suit spamming would be cool though Prof T.

[Prof. Tesseract]

@ king:
were you addressing me with a request for a list?

[TheKingElessar]

Pretty much, yep. I won't be hurt if you decline, but if you use fewer than 5 Crisis suits (assuming you play 1750+) then I'm very curious indeed.

[Prof. Tesseract]

Actually, my gaming group usually does 1500pts, which is why i only use a max of 5 suits. In my opinion, Csuits are used to fill in the gaps in the list, and anything over 5 of them are taking points that could be better spent on other units. Sadly, i dont have a link to a static list that i use, as it changes slightly for each game i play, as do my opponents lists. At the moment, my wife and i are about to head out for dinner. When i have time tomorrow i will start a relevant thread that outlines the units i use as a backbone for my force. Keep your eyes high. Also TKE, sorry to hear youve had a bad day.

[TheKingElessar]

Enjoy your dinner.

Frankly, I hate playing 1500 points with such passion that my interest has diminished. I'll still read the topic if you give me the link, but I wouldn't search for it...I really can't express without swearing how much of a waste of time I feel 1500 points is. lol